[iamdone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyverl I think i'm going to take the plunge and upgrade from my love-hate relationship with ER4S to UE10 or Sensaphonic. Can I ask about occlusion effects with UE10 or Sensas. Walking with Etys is not practical as I can hear my footsteps so loudly. How loud is the 'footstep' sound?

It's about the same. If I'm wearing tennis shoes vs something with a hard bottom, there is less occlusion effects. I don't notice it anymore since it's there with any canalphone. I didn't have any problems walking the dog because it was mostly in the park on grass and there really wasn't any occlusion effects.

There no cord noises with either one. I just prefer the ue10 cord because I got the longer length.

A couple of other things to point out is that I might simplifying that differences between the two. I haven't really a/b'd them to hear exactly what all the differences are and don't intend to. I think I basically summarized why I chose one over the other.

Some of the differences are:

The ue10: does have more forward vocals, does have a slight sibilance problem ("ssss"), has a little bit grainy treble, has a crispness to them

The sensas: are a little more "musical", has better soundstage, better for sleeping with, can sound slighty stuffy over time, (the whole recessed sound I mentioned at the beginning was incorrect. This was cause by incorrect volume matching between the 2 iems. The sensas need a little more volume than I was originally adjusting for. I was turning it up to make up for the difference in ohms, just not far enought at first.)

If I was reading my two summaries, I'd think the sensas were the winner and can see why lindrone chose them. For me, it's all about the stuffiness. What good are they if I don't get drawn into them and want to remove them after 30 minutes. The ue10 do draw me in and the sibilance and graininess do not both me at all but I can see how it could to someone. They could come away with just the opposite opinion and find the ue10 annoying after 30 minutes. Makes it tough to decide.

 

[deafmutelame]

Thanks for your honest comments iamdone.

What can you comment on the materials and which one would you rate more comfortable than the other, wearing over long periods of time vs. taking them on and off every now and then?

How would you compare the dynamics, which one would you rate best for low / loud listening levels?

Also, may I suggest doing an A/B with "Time", from Dark Side of The Moon (Pink Floyd), which is a very well mastered and produced track that has a bit of everything, bass, vocals, drums, stereo separation, trebles, sibilance testing, soundstage, headroom...notice the degree of detail on the initial clocks and the deep bass from second 0:39 onwards. While you are there, the next track, The Great Gig in the Sky, is perfect for vocals.

Thanks.

 

[Kieran Comito]

A couple of other things to point out is that I might simplifying that differences between the two. I haven't really a/b'd them to hear exactly what all the differences are and don't intend to. I think I basically summarized why I chose one over the other.

Some of the differences are:

The ue10: does have more forward vocals, does have a slight sibilance problem ("ssss"), has a little bit grainy treble, has a crispness to them

The sensas: are a little more "musical", has better soundstage, better for sleeping with, can sound slighty stuffy over time, (the whole recessed sound I mentioned at the beginning was incorrect. This was cause by incorrect volume matching between the 2 iems. The sensas need a little more volume than I was originally adjusting for. I was turning it up to make up for the difference in ohms, just not far enought at first.)


Do you notice the grainy treble on the UE-10 more when you listen without an amp? I would think the SR-71 would help take care of that.

 

[iamdone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kieran Comito A couple of other things to point out is that I might simplifying that differences between the two. I haven't really a/b'd them to hear exactly what all the differences are and don't intend to. I think I basically summarized why I chose one over the other. Some of the differences are: The ue10: does have more forward vocals, does have a slight sibilance problem ("ssss"), has a little bit grainy treble, has a crispness to them The sensas: are a little more "musical", has better soundstage, better for sleeping with, can sound slighty stuffy over time, (the whole recessed sound I mentioned at the beginning was incorrect. This was cause by incorrect volume matching between the 2 iems. The sensas need a little more volume than I was originally adjusting for. I was turning it up to make up for the difference in ohms, just not far enought at first.) Do you notice the grainy treble on the UE-10 more when you listen without an amp? I would think the SR-71 would help take care of that.

It's about the same. I haven't tried another source yet to verify if it's the actual files that are the problem yet. It's really not as bad it sounds. Just instead of sounding perfectly smooth, you hear a little roughness that doesn't exactly sound right. More like, is this a bad recording. Maybe it's just more accurate and less forgiving than any of my other headphones. You can't blame the headphones if it's doing it's job and picking out everything in the recording itself.

 

[iamdone]

They're the exact same comfort in normal use. They both just disappear in your ears. You forget they're there. If you are going to lay down with them a lot, the sensa are much better. The ue10 have pressure from the stem and also have a creaking sound if you move around on the pillow.

I'll give Pink Floyd at listen. I think I have every album except "Delicate Sound of Thunder". I'll try to test what you looking but it might have to wait. Right now, I'm still interested in just listening to full albums and seeing how much enjoyment I get out it. I don't really want to play a song, stop, put in the other headphones and see how it sounds different. When I was doing that last, the sensas win at first. So even though they win in quick side by side tests, they lose in extended listening and enjoyment and that's what really counts to me. I just want to put ue10 in and use them the way I would normally and stop testing. Sorry if I sound frustrated but with all this back and forth, I really having gotten to use them that much other than when I walked the dog. It's also be way too nice in the Bay Area so I wasn't home much either.


Quote:

Originally Posted by deafmutelame Thanks for your honest comments iamdone. What can you comment on the materials and which one would you rate more comfortable than the other, wearing over long periods of time vs. taking them on and off every now and then? How would you compare the dynamics, which one would you rate best for low / loud listening levels? Also, may I suggest doing an A/B with "Time", from Dark Side of The Moon (Pink Floyd), which is a very well mastered and produced track that has a bit of everything, bass, vocals, drums, stereo separation, trebles, sibilance testing, soundstage, headroom...notice the degree of detail on the initial clocks and the deep bass from second 0:39 onwards. While you are there, the next track, The Great Gig in the Sky, is perfect for vocals. Thanks.

 

[lindrone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamdone The ue10 have pressure from the stem and also have a creaking sound if you move around on the pillow.

This is actually a big sticking point for me. When I move my mouth in certain motions, it's very clear that the stem of the UE10 Pro has no "give" to it whatsoever. Thus the stem will be irritating/scratching/poking at the side of my ear canals. If I felt like singing with the music, I really don't feel comfortable doing it, and obviously I can't do anything else (chewing.. for example) with them in without feeling irritated to a degree. Of course, some of us never sing with the music nor chew & listen to music at the same time.


Quote:

So even though they win in quick side by side tests, they lose in extended listening and enjoyment and that's what really counts to me.

This is where I feel exactly the opposite, I don't quite understand what this "stuffiness" is that you're hearing. For me it's always been the other way around. UE10 Pro's forward vocal and compressed frontal soundstage has always made me feel like the music is pounding in my head after a while, and "stuffy" as a result.

2X-S, on the other hand, projects a soundstage where I'm actually a few rows back in a concert hall, which is where I prefer to listen to music live rather than sitting next to the stage, regardless of the venue (For example, I would never try to make my way to front of the stage at The Fillmore, even though it is still relatively a small venue).

To me, the 2X-S's sound is actually much airier and realistic than UE10 Pro... thus much less "congested" feeling. Of course, if your full-size headphone of preference is RS-1...

 

[toaster]

here's another little tidbit of information that i want to hammer home, cause i feel like it's importance keeps getting glossed over nanchalantly...

the recording you are listening to makes a whole hell of a lot of difference.

with the sensas, (and other high-level iem's i would imagine) they are so detailed that they reveal every little nuance; acoustical, instrumental and almost all else...this includes recording quality. let me give some examples to convey precisely what i am talking about and why it is important to understand this...

in some recordings vocals sound stuffy, congested, grainy harsh...yeah even on the sensas. they sound this way because the microphone that was being used was simply tuned in such a way, that these types of vocal charactersitics and anomalies would be recorded. as i mentioned a week ago, i was listening to the keanne album, and the vocals sound spectacular.

also greatly affected is treble - it's range and smoothness. i listen to some recordings with the sensas, and there is hardly any of that sparkly range treble. (this, is where the etys gain their "non-reference" status) because with ALL treble, etys force that sparkly treble, whether it is there or not. it kinda sounds good, but it sounds fake and just gets fatiguing after a while. The sensas do not convey this sparkling, because, neither does the recording. Put on some well recorded violin, and you'll hear high-end like the ety could only dream of reproducing; all detail, smooth, and no harshness or graininess...magnificent.

It must be understood that the sensas (and other custom iem's) are not intended for colored sound. They are intended to reproduce the live music musicians are playing on stage, for them to hear over the screaming fans. For this reason, they have that "live" sound, even when you're hearing a recording being played back. Sure it won't sound quite as transparent and as clear as when they're playing out on stage live, but they do have the ABILITY to reproduce the startling clarity and accuracy of real music. I believe this is why i always feel compelled to talk about the "liveness" of the sensas, cause they were in fact made for and sound like live music. The sensas simply don't color the sound at all:

Cymbals sound real, and not overly extended and tingly like the etys. They also decay on the sensas with an almost indistinguishable difference from real life. AND!!! when there is not well recorded cymbals, the sensas will play back a dull, lifeless cymbal, whereas the etys will not. For some people i think they were used to a song with dull cymbal just shining through on their etys, than when hearing the sensas with this song they were like, ahhh no treble. Totally understandable.

yeah, so that stuff is very important and it really hasn't been strongly expressed before. i want people to know what's goin' on here.

 

[iamdone]

I knew we'd hear from you soon enough.

I think the stem issue is unique from person because I can move my mouth around in any direction and I don't get any irritating/scratching/poking. The poking is only when I am trying to sleep on my side and put real pressure on them.

As far as you choosing the sensas and me the ue10 probably has to do with how we enjoy a live concert. I saw Joe Strummer play the Fillmore (in the same year he died) but was kind of in the middle of the building. It was a great show but not an exciting one. I saw him a few months later in Las Vegas and we were standing almost right at the stage. Not only did the music sound more exciting but you also feel more concected with the performers. This was the same for when I saw the Pixies a few months ago. I loved the show because I was almost at the stage but some of my friends who saw it in the stands thought it was kind of dull. I think I just prefer a very forward sound to recreate that experience. That's why I love the Grados.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindrone This is actually a big sticking point for me. When I move my mouth in certain motions, it's very clear that the stem of the UE10 Pro has no "give" to it whatsoever. Thus the stem will be irritating/scratching/poking at the side of my ear canals. If I felt like singing with the music, I really don't feel comfortable doing it, and obviously I can't do anything else (chewing.. for example) with them in without feeling irritated to a degree. Of course, some of us never sing with the music nor chew & listen to music at the same time. This is where I feel exactly the opposite, I don't quite understand what this "stuffiness" is that you're hearing. For me it's always been the other way around. UE10 Pro's forward vocal and compressed frontal soundstage has always made me feel like the music is pounding in my head after a while, and "stuffy" as a result. 2X-S, on the other hand, projects a soundstage where I'm actually a few rows back in a concert hall, which is where I prefer to listen to music live rather than sitting next to the stage, regardless of the venue (For example, I would never try to make my way to front of the stage at The Fillmore, even though it is still relatively a small venue). To me, the 2X-S's sound is actually much airier and realistic than UE10 Pro... thus much less "congested" feeling. Of course, if your full-size headphone of preference is RS-1...

 

[iamdone]

I don't get this "live" thing toaster and plainsong talk about. Just because these are in ear monitors to be used while playing live, does necessarily make them the best for playing back music to make it sound live. You can convince yourself of this but it doesn't make it true. They are used for live music because they block sound, can be conceiled, do have great playback quality, are easily powered, and can easily be eq'd. All great things for a musician. Also great things for a portable headphone.

At home, I don't actually not these qualities. To me, at least rock and jazz sound the most live like with the RS-1. The wood of those headphones actually captures the real airy wood sound of instruments. I don't care if you call them colored or inaccurate, to me they are the most concert like I've heard. I'd also say the same for the hd650/zu when listening to classical. These headphone capture that much better than the iems as well.

Oh, that stuffiness of the sensas is hard to explain. If I listen for a while something seems off. I really just doesn't enjoy the sound after a while. After I spend some more time with the ue10, I'll give the sensas another go at it and see if I feel the same.

 

[toaster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamdone I don't get this "live" thing toaster and plainsong talk about. Just because these are in ear monitors to be used while playing live, does necessarily make them the best for playing back music to make it sound live. You can convince yourself of this but it doesn't make it true. They are used for live music because they block sound, can be conceiled, do have great playback quality, are easily powered, and can easily be eq'd. All great things for a musician. Also I great things for a portable headphone. At home, I don't actually not these qualities. To me, at least rock and jazz sound the most live like with the RS-1. The wood of those headphones actually captures the real airy wood sound of instruments. I don't care if you call them colored or inaccurate, to me they are the most concert like I've heard. I'd also say the same for the hd650/zu when listening to classical. These headphone capture that much better than the iems as well. Oh, that stuffiness of the sensas is hard to explain. If I listen for a while something seems off. I really just doesn't enjoy the sound after a while. After I spend some more time with the ue10, I'll give the sensas another go at it and see if I feel the same.

I am not convincing myself of anything. I am stating the primary uses for custom iem's, the only phones designed for live music. And for whatever reason, they sound very, very real for playback.

Also, i haven't said anything about this before, but i think it's a little irrelevant to keep comparing the rs-1's to custom iem's. They are two totally different beasts. There is that openness and airiness that you just are not going to have with an iem. I can totally understand a preference for this type of sound, and only the grados (in this instance) are going to give it to you.

I've also never called the grados innacurate, that's been other people. I would actually love to hear the rs-1's to see what they sound like.

i can understand calling any iem stuffy, cause they are compared to an open phone. but it is remarkable how much more open the sensas are then the e5's - which just goes to show that it is possible to create a "more open sound" (as far as open sound for an iem goes) from one iem to another.

this post is worded strongly, but i don't mean it to be rude. i just feel very strongly about this matter and i want to make sure i am clear about what i mean and how i feel.

keep updating us on your impresssions iamdone.

 

[plainsong]

Well I was talking about the sound of the Sensas, that they were like a direct link to my source amp, with nothing blocking the way. That's as close to live as my gear is capable of reproducing.

But I don't get how you describe the sound of the sensas because it's not at all what I hear. There's no stuffiness or nothing odd with the treble or anything like that. It sounds how it should sound. That's probably the biggest compliment you could give a peice of audio gear I think.

But have you come any closer to really being done?

Oh how I wish I still had my buffet e-45 and some rs-1's to compare live wooden clarinet to recorded wooden clarinet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamdone I don't get this "live" thing toaster and plainsong talk about. Just because these are in ear monitors to be used while playing live, does necessarily make them the best for playing back music to make it sound live. You can convince yourself of this but it doesn't make it true. They are used for live music because they block sound, can be conceiled, do have great playback quality, are easily powered, and can easily be eq'd. All great things for a musician. Also great things for a portable headphone. At home, I don't actually not these qualities. To me, at least rock and jazz sound the most live like with the RS-1. The wood of those headphones actually captures the real airy wood sound of instruments. I don't care if you call them colored or inaccurate, to me they are the most concert like I've heard. I'd also say the same for the hd650/zu when listening to classical. These headphone capture that much better than the iems as well. Oh, that stuffiness of the sensas is hard to explain. If I listen for a while something seems off. I really just doesn't enjoy the sound after a while. After I spend some more time with the ue10, I'll give the sensas another go at it and see if I feel the same.

 

[Blitzula]

Good method listening to your albums in their entirety for musical enjoyment for awhile. I bet if you switch back and forth between the Sensas and UEs for a week or so a pop, you'll get to where you're going faster. A lot of a/bing can create confusion about what you heard two tracks ago and pulls you out of the musicality aspect so much. I think each method has their place, but the best is using one for a reasonably extended period and switching to the other. Not always an option though....

I agree on the live music point...there is just no way that an Ipod and music file CAN sound like live music. The Sensaphonics is only pulling what the Ipod gives is, particularly since it's uncolored. I also agree that Grados capture the emotion of a live concert at a close distance well.

 

[plainsong]

I agree. Of course it's gonna be all about the air and I'm certainly not giving up open cans for the Sensas. I can get down with my Sensas, I can use them with just about anything, they are my base of honesty, but for airiness? Toaster hit the nail on the head.

And when I spoke about coloration in the rs-1, I was simply stating a widely held opinion that lots of people agree with and disagree with. I felt it would be a good foundation to start from, knowing your opinion on it, and people can gauge how the IEMs would sound to them... ya know?

I'm not dissin' your cans, I mean, I'm getting ms-2's for crying out loud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster22 Also, i haven't said anything about this before, but i think it's a little irrelevant to keep comparing the rs-1's to custom iem's. They are two totally different beasts. There is that openness and airiness that you just are not going to have with an iem. I can totally understand a preference for this type of sound, and only the grados (in this instance) are going to give it to you. I've also never called the grados innacurate, that's been other people. I would actually love to hear the rs-1's to see what they sound like.

 

[iamdone]

Don't think the RS-1 vs iems is irrelevant if you are trying to tell someone to buy these because they sound the most live like. I don't think that's true with what I've heard. I'm just talking headphone in general. I think most people are looking at these for portable reasons. I believe Welly Wu only uses them in a home setup. It looks like he also owned the RS-1 and hd650 and prefers the ue10 so maybe it's just a preference thing.

Anyway, they're selling point is they are the best portable headphone you can find. If you are only looking at a home phone, I personally would not recommend any type of canalphone. They full short in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster22 I am not convincing myself of anything. I am stating the primary uses for custom iem's, the only phones designed for live music. And for whatever reason, they sound very, very real for playback. Also, i haven't said anything about this before, but i think it's a little irrelevant to keep comparing the rs-1's to custom iem's. They are two totally different beasts. There is that openness and airiness that you just are not going to have with an iem. I can totally understand a preference for this type of sound, and only the grados (in this instance) are going to give it to you. I've also never called the grados innacurate, that's been other people. I would actually love to hear the rs-1's to see what they sound like. i can understand calling any iem stuffy, cause they are compared to an open phone. but it is remarkable how much more open the sensas are then the e5's - which just goes to show that it is possible to create a "more open sound" (as far as open sound for an iem goes) from one iem to another. this post is worded strongly, but i don't mean it to be rude. i just feel very strongly about this matter and i want to make sure i am clear about what i mean and how i feel. keep updating us on your impresssions iamdone.

 

[Welly Wu]

Heh. I guesss I ought to fess up and say that I use my Ue-10 PRO in My All American Reference System only. No portables for Welly Wu!

Anyway, I'm listening to John Mayer's Heavier Things and I was switching it with my Grado SR-60s. I know ya'll will knock the SR-60s, but I have to agree with iamdone that the Grados do rock music right to my ears. However, I still say stick those expensive IEMs into a dedicated home source component and come back with your opinions. That'll rest the debate over whether the source component matters at all...

Right now, I have to say that I enjoy the Ue-10 PRO most especially with classical, acoustical, music such as chamber, opera, strings, concertos, jazz, blues, rhythm & blues, folk, and older conservative Country music (with no pop/rock influences). It is just so important to have a proper source component feeding these custom IEMs and to have the right acoustical music in order to get sucked into the music for hours. I was listening to Jewel's Pieces of You Red Book CD last night about three times before I went to sleep because it is just so magical (at least before she became a pop tart) through my home system and my Ue-10 PRO.

iamdone, when you have the chance, try a proper dedicated source component through your headamp and both custom IEMs. Does what I have to say jibe with you too? Only one way to find out...