[memepool]

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Originally Posted by grokit /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree on the record cleaning machine; my VPI HW-16.5 is one of the best purchases I have ever made. It's a couple of hundred dollars more but still on the cheap end of these units, and the design of this model has been unchanged in over three decades if that tells you anything. As far as surface noise, there are also record flatteners, and de-magnetizers, very pricey but reportedly worth it; an anti-static gun is next on my list as they are much more reasonably priced, and sorry about your wallet!

I'd wholeheartedly agree that a vacuum based record cleaner is invaluable in the hunt for vinyl bargains but...

Given that the OP is running a vintage Pioneer which costs 100USD or less these days I'd say a record cleaning machine is probably not the first upgrade though

The cheapest vacuum based one is a KABUSA.com version of the Nitty Gritty called the KAB EV-1 which uses a domestic vacuum cleaner and costs around 160USD last time looked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmb Compliance is going to take me a while to grok

As far as getting your head around compliance goes there is a good article on the SME website here SME - Series V about what has informed the different designs over the years.
They explain the compliance issue in the third paragraph.

From previous experience of the Ortofon OM-5 / 10 / 20 on a Dual CS-505, I wouldn't expect it to sound anything like you've described. On a correctly matched arm even at the lower end of OM stylus range this is one of the very best carts I've ever heard at ignoring surface noise albeit at the cost of a slightly bland airbrushed sound in an absolute sense. Nevertheless it's performance is class leading in this respect and it's a perfect example of a budget cart that lets you enjoy vinyl without dwelling on it's flaws even on a very humble record player.

The sibilance and cracks you are hearing are a result of serious mistracking rather than dirty records.

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Originally Posted by dasmb Floors are hardwood; table is on essentially a 4 foot box made of 3/4" oak panels with oak shelves screwed into the sides. Original feet and springs (though the rubber has rotted out and been tacky glued to keep the feet from falling off when moved)

Acoustic feeback will magnify these kinds of problems and the Pioneer is a pretty rudimentary design in this regard. You can try sorbothane feet to replace the original ones that perished and also taking the lid off altogether when playing records will help.
If your hardwood floors are over concrete then it should be ok on a piece of heavy furniture like you have described. If the floorboards are suspended on joists then a wall shelf is going to be a necessity. Target and Apollo make specific Hi-Fi ones which arn't madly expensive but a DIY one will be just as good.

 

[mark_h]

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Originally Posted by grokit /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lol Ray, is that your pink LP with the butterfly? What is it?

Its Bjork's Post, great album on vinyl, bass goes deeep!

A new cart is the first step to almost noise free vinyl nirvana, you can get to a situation where there is only noise on the run in/out. I recommend the one from the MM Nagaoka range

 

[dasmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif From previous experience of the Ortofon OM-5 / 10 / 20 on a Dual CS-505, I wouldn't expect it to sound anything like you've described. On a correctly matched arm even at the lower end of OM stylus range this is one of the very best carts I've ever heard at ignoring surface noise albeit at the cost of a slightly bland airbrushed sound in an absolute sense. Nevertheless it's performance is class leading in this respect and it's a perfect example of a budget cart that lets you enjoy vinyl without dwelling on it's flaws even on a very humble record player. The sibilance and cracks you are hearing are a result of serious mistracking rather than dirty records.

I should probably specify that the problem isn't pervasive -- the cracks/clicks/snaps/pops/whathaveyou don't occur on all records, and only in certain frequency bands. I have a 1950s dixieland jazz record I was listening to this morning that expresses the problem pretty well -- when the clarinet is noodling in the lower part of its register, it's accompanied by some pretty severe and distracting noise. When he starts playing up in the higher register, the noise goes away. Same thing with what I'm calling "sibilance" -- certain recordings have sections where vocals sound fuzzy (such as the word "ears"). However, on my best, newest and cleanest records, these are negligible factors and the sound is very good.

What's more, these are effects I hear on my old Sony table too -- the clicks are louder more distracting through the 518/OM-5E, but then everything in that sound band is louder.

This leads me to believe that I need to concentrate on cleaning up my source before I can definitively say the Ortofon is junk. However, I understand that a lower compliance cart is in my future. Probably an Audio Technica -- I've been on an AT kick lately -- that 95E, the 120E or maybe even an 440MLa.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmb /img/forum/go_quote.gif I should probably specify that the problem isn't pervasive -- the cracks/clicks/snaps/pops/whathaveyou don't occur on all records, and only in certain frequency bands. I have a 1950s dixieland jazz record I was listening to this morning that expresses the problem pretty well -- when the clarinet is noodling in the lower part of its register, it's accompanied by some pretty severe and distracting noise. When he starts playing up in the higher register, the noise goes away. Same thing with what I'm calling "sibilance" -- certain recordings have sections where vocals sound fuzzy (such as the word "ears"). However, on my best, newest and cleanest records, these are negligible factors and the sound is very good.

Cartridge Resonance Evaluator

suggests the optimum effective mass for this cart is 5-6gms whereas yours is 16-17gms putting the resonance on the border of 7-8 hz which as SME say causes a situation where

Quote:

the cartridge wobbles alarmingly and is unduly excited by minor warps - Shure's work showed that this has a maximum content around 6Hz. Close examination at such a condition will show the pickup perpetually vibrating at its resonance frequency.

The description of the distortions you are hearing at the various frequencies are not really consistent with record wear. On the Dixieland jazz record I'd expect the high frequencies to sound grainy, especially on woodwind instruments if the record was worn as opposed to cleaner in the highs than the lows.

Of course this will be further complicated by dirt on the records and I would certainly agree that an RCM is well worth the money for anyone who buys a lot of 2nd hand records however getting a mechanical match between the stylus and arm is more pressing as this will actually cause damage.

As I said there is nothing wrong with your Ortofon cart at all, it's a very nice cart at it's pricepoint, but it won't work properly with a higher mass arm and using it in this fashion will wear out the stylus and your records, as in effect the little Ortofon is bouncing along in an uncontrolled manner dragging 3 times the mass it's designed for down the groove walls of your treasured vinyl.

Also it's perfectly possible that your Sony also suffered from similar symptoms as compliance mismatching is a very common issue. Sibilance can often be in the recording itself and is actually usually caused by bad micing. There is even a special filter called a De-esser used in every studio set-up to alleviate this.

The most common audible symptom of record wear in older Jazz and classical records is grainy high frequency distortion caused by older ceramic carts played at ridiculously high tracking weights. Lower frequencies are generally better protected. With a cart like the AT440MLA with a microline stylus profile you can play deeper into the groove walls and often trace below this damage.
Ideally vacuuming the records before use is a good idea as otherwise the accumulated gunk ends up caked on your stylus. If you look at it under a 30x magnifier you'll see the end is often black.

 

[jhupka]

This is a timely thread - I recently bought a Kenwood KDC-1033 as my first foray into vinyl, so I'm interested to hear "next steps" for those new to turntables as well. Mine came with a Shure Hi-Track cartridge, although I don't know it's age or condition. I have on order an Audio-Technica AT-PEQ3 pre-amp, so I have yet to actually listen to the turntable.

I was looking into building my own DIY LP-vacuum as well like was linked to in an earlier thread, although for now I could just build the velvet-covered attachment and use on my existing vacuum and use another old-and-busted turntable I have and manually turn the LP.

I've also lurked a lot in the DIY section of head-fi, so would it be worth essentially re-cabling the turntable? Maybe not the needle-wires in the tonearm, but at least the RCA outs using this thread as guidance:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/how...ep-pics-50729/

Thoughts on a re-wire for parts of the 30-year-old TT?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhupka /img/forum/go_quote.gif Kenwood KDC-1033 as my first foray into vinyl, so I'm interested to hear "next steps" for those new to turntables as well. Mine came with a Shure Hi-Track cartridge

The KDC-1033 is from 1978 or '79 I think. The budget models which preceded it had a medium to high mass tonearm (12-16gm) and the KD1500 it's successor had a high mass 20gm arm, although I don't have the specs of this particular model. Vinyl Engine has some basic info Kenwood KD-1033 Owners Manual, Service Manual, Schematics, Free Download | Vinyl Engine

So even assuming the 1033 is a medium mass the Shure isn't an ideal compliance match as Hi-Track usually means eliptical like the M-75 and these usually are quite high compliance.

So as above you are better off with an Audio Technica AT95E / AT110 / AT120 /AT440MLA or else a high out put moving coil like the Denon DL110 or 160 will be ideal.

Again like the Pioneer mentioned above the Kenwood, like most Japanese decks of the period, isn't great on suspended wooden floors as the suspension isn't very effective so sorbothane pods replaceing the feet is a good idea as is a wall shelf unless you live in a building with solid concrete or stone floors.

Rewiring the tonearm is definitely a good idea as a rule but some designs are going to be way more fiddly than others and the thread you linked to was about headphone cables as far as I could see. Tonearms are a lot more difficult, especially those with removable headshells as you need to disassemble this socket to get at the wiring.

Usually you solder the new tonearm cables to the ends of the old and drag them through the arm tube very very carefully. It's de rigueur to use one length from cartridge to external rca plugs, but if you take the deck apart you often find the external cables are soldered to a pcb inside which makes these easier to replace on their own if you don't fancy attempting the arm wand.

On a budget cables from an old computer mouse flex would be ideal for the inner wiring as these are much higher quality than audio grade cable from the '70s and the external wiring is best replaced with microphone cable like the Canare they mention in the linked thread.

 

[dasmb]

I picked up an AT440MLA, should arrive soon. I will take before and after samples from my biggest gripe records and post them when it arrives.

 

[freakydrew]

I recently acquired a Denon DP 3500 with a black widow, the original owner suggested it would need a new cartridge as well. I am also trying to figure out what high compliance really means? the Black Widow apparently calls for a high compliance, low mass cartridge...

Anyway, this purchase came with two set up records, one called the "Audio System Test Record. this is described as "A laboratory-produced test record for evaluating and optimizing your hi-fi's system performance". it is pretty solid and helped me tweak a few simple things and I need a new stylus and a cartridge. I also learned I can not hear above 17,000 Hz.
the second one I have not tried yet is by the BBC and is the BBC Stereo Test Disc...same principle.
I would burn you a copy...but....
best of luck with your AT!

 

[grokit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhupka /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've also lurked a lot in the DIY section of head-fi, so would it be worth essentially re-cabling the turntable? Maybe not the needle-wires in the tonearm, but at least the RCA outs using this thread as guidance: Thoughts on a re-wire for parts of the 30-year-old TT?

I have been thinking about picking up a vintage turntable for the purpose of re-wiring the tonearm somehow in a pure balanced mode directly from the stylus/cartridge, use XLRs instead of RCAs, and then into a balanced in/out phono stage, and finally into a balanced headphone amp/listening rig

 

[Uncle Erik]

Tweaks aside, spend some time hunting for and grabbing used vinyl. This is where the real magic of vinyl is.

Buy anything that looks interesting - forget genres and artists. If it grabs your eye, buy it and listen.

You can do all sorts of tweaks and upgrades. But none of them compare with prying open your head and pouring in music you never considered or even knew existed. That, without question, is the best part of spinning black discs. Take advantage of it.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tweaks aside, spend some time hunting for and grabbing used vinyl. This is where the real magic of vinyl is. Buy anything that looks interesting - forget genres and artists. If it grabs your eye, buy it and listen. You can do all sorts of tweaks and upgrades. But none of them compare with prying open your head and pouring in music you never considered or even knew existed. That, without question, is the best part of spinning black discs. Take advantage of it.

AMEN!!!!! Couldn't agree more.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by freakydrew /img/forum/go_quote.gif I recently acquired a Denon DP 3500 with a black widow, the original owner suggested it would need a new cartridge as well. I am also trying to figure out what high compliance really means? the Black Widow apparently calls for a high compliance, low mass cartridge...

The Infinity Black Widow is one of the lowest mass arms ever made aside from the SME III with an effective mass of 4-5gms if memory serves. A very interesting design as mentioned in the SME link above the move towards low mass was a trend in the late 1970s, I think in many ways a reaction to worsening quality of pressings resulting from the oil crisis at the time.

It was thought that a very low mass arm with a very springy (high compliance) cartridge was better suited to riding warps and also could track at very low weights which put less wear on your thin meanly pressed recycled '70s vinyl.

The only fly in the ointment is that rigidity of the arm is necessarily compromised unless it's made very short, another reason for the move towards short linear tracking arms like those designed by Bang and Olufsen.

With a conventional 9" arm wand it's got to be made of a very low mass yet rigid material in order to absorb the torsional stress of playing a record. SME favoured specially formulated titanium, others like Sony experimented with carbon fibre which I think is what the Black Widow wand is made of.

I've never heard one but I had an SME III for a while and it sounded lovely in a sort of '70s high end kind of way. No bad thing as these were still glory days for analogue of course and the peak in many ways for Hi-Fi equipment in general. If your Denon / Black Widow sounds anything like my Thorens / SME then it'll be rich, lush and very smooth, the sound that many would associate with vinyl replay at it's most alluring and a world away from digital reproduction of any sort.

I'd partner it ideally with a very modern analytic solid state phonostage like the Cambridge 640P to get a bit more balance or else a big smooth '70s class A muscle amp like a Marantz for that retro vibe.

There are a fair amount of high compliance carts still around. The bargain would be the Nagaoka MP11 from LPgear if they have any left which is a nicely balanced design or else the Shure M-97 from Amazon is a little more laid back sounding. Ortofon OM series are also perfect although can be a bit bland unless you go for a higher up one with finer stylus tip (OM20-40) and KABUSA has these. They also have Stanton who still make a few really nice ones like the 881. Grado's better carts like the wood body ones will also be a good mechanical match.

The next level up is harder as moving coil carts are not suitable for an arm like this and higher end MMs are more tailored to medium mass arms in most cases these days. The very best design still available today would be a Bang and Olufsen cart from the Soundsmith with a mounting adaptor or else one of his own models. See The Soundsmith Moving Iron, B&O compatible and modified Moving Coil Phono Cartridges

 

[freakydrew]

/\ wow/\
thanks so much that was a really great post and will give me a lot to consider.
very appreciated.

 

[dasmb]

Psst -- I know where you can get a good deal on a slightly used OM-5E

I found Tonearm/Cartridge Capability a most helpful primer, especially their identification of the two different units used to express compliance (um/mN and C (x10-6)).

 

[tunarat]

If you are strapped for cash, or simply want the best, then this is the premier vinyl cleaner on the market. Considerably more time consuming, but worth it.

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