[ooheadsoo]

Hrmph. Better than the first by a long shot. Who woulda guessed? Too bad the season had some real dud fights, but this more than made up for it.

And, again, some of the crowd just disgust me. Who are those people?

Last fight of the night gave reconfirmed my distrust of the panels judging capacities. Scores could have been much closer. In another final, the scores were much closer than I would have thought. Much subtleties in the fight I mentioned first, and much less subtlety in the final in question...

 

[DarkAngel]

Too bad no hot head figure like Chris Leban to make life at training house more TV exciting

I like fights from UF1 better myself, especially the final heavyweights. Spike TV needs some TV programingto fill void left by WWE RAW departure.......TNA is OK but not as well produced as RAW. I suspect they will make UF3 reality series, but would be cool if UF was big enough to put on weekly cable TV fight show like RAW, don't really see it since fighters often need long healing process if they have tough fight and beat up.

We will see what develops

 

[ooheadsoo]

Well, the lineup for the season was a bit of a dud, but the actual final was much, much better. Don't forget that they had that dumb worked fight with Shamrock and Franklin in the first final. The welter final was also no good. This was the only time I saw Diego come into a fight in shape.

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo Well, the lineup for the season was a bit of a dud, but the actual final was much, much better. Don't forget that they had that dumb worked fight with Shamrock and Franklin in the first final. The welter final was also no good. This was the only time I saw Diego come into a fight in shape.

Worked fight? You get a good look at Shamrock's face? That was no work, even if he says it was. All he's doing is covering the fact that he was never anywhere near as good as they used to claim he was.

The finals was a pretty good card overall. I think anyone watching throughout the season knew Joe Stevenson was going to win. Didn't expect Luke Cummo to give him that good of a fight. The Rashad-Brad fight was pretty close, but Rashad shook him several times, so I think the decision was pretty fair.

Not sure what you meant by the your comment about the judging for the last fight, Sanchez-Diaz. You think the fight should have gone to Diaz?

 

[ooheadsoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeAmEye Worked fight? You get a good look at Shamrock's face? That was no work, even if he says it was. All he's doing is covering the fact that he was never anywhere near as good as they used to claim he was. The finals was a pretty good card overall. I think anyone watching throughout the season knew Joe Stevenson was going to win. Didn't expect Luke Cummo to give him that good of a fight. The Rashad-Brad fight was pretty close, but Rashad shook him several times, so I think the decision was pretty fair. Not sure what you meant by the your comment about the judging for the last fight, Sanchez-Diaz. You think the fight should have gone to Diaz?

Shamrock didn't say it was a worked fight. I'm saying it's a worked fight from what I have seen of Shamrock over the years. Shamrock's face didn't look like anything. If you've seen his old fights and, better yet, seen him training, you might have a different idea. I don't know of anyone who has seen Shamrock's fights throughout the years and doesn't think it was a worked fight. (Granted I haven't asked all that many people.)

Brad vs Rashad wasn't that close at all. Brad's punches were sloppy and Rashad was beating Brad to the punch every time despite his severe reach disadvantage. Plus, Brad was the only one who was knocked down - twice. Rashad got wobbly but Brad never capitalized as effectively. Yet, this was the split decision. I felt that Brad desperately needed a big KO to deserve a win.

Diaz was pushing Sanchez on the ground, neutralizing Sanchez's strikes while constantly on the offense, trying submissions. Perhaps those newer to the ground fight aren't quite as aware of the subtleties of the ground game. I'm no expert but I'm used to watching for the positioning of all four limbs, the torso, and the hips. The Diaz/Sanchez ground game was much better than the ground game in Stevenson/Cummo. Yet, this fight was the unanimous decision. I must admit, as I did above, that Diego finally came to a fight looking ready, but it was much closer IMO than the judges gave credit for.

 

[Lil_JV]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo Diaz was pushing Sanchez on the ground, neutralizing Sanchez's strikes while constantly on the offense, trying submissions. Perhaps those newer to the ground fight aren't quite as aware of the subtleties of the ground game. I'm no expert but I'm used to watching for the positioning of all four limbs, the torso, and the hips. The Diaz/Sanchez ground game was much better than the ground game in Stevenson/Cummo. Yet, this fight was the unanimous decision. I must admit, as I did above, that Diego finally came to a fight looking ready, but it was much closer IMO than the judges gave credit for.

I hate Sanchez. He is too cocky for his own good. Diaz was on the verge of neatralizing his takedowns near the end of the fight. If that happened Diego would have been seriously bloodied. Did anyone catch Diaz's previous fight on UFC Unleashed? He knocked a heavy striker out on his feet. I gotta admit though, Sanchez is pretty good on the ground, but that's just not the kinda fights people want to see.

JV.

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo Shamrock didn't say it was a worked fight. I'm saying it's a worked fight from what I have seen of Shamrock over the years. Shamrock's face didn't look like anything. If you've seen his old fights and, better yet, seen him training, you might have a different idea. I don't know of anyone who has seen Shamrock's fights throughout the years and doesn't think it was a worked fight. (Granted I haven't asked all that many people.) Brad vs Rashad wasn't that close at all. Brad's punches were sloppy and Rashad was beating Brad to the punch every time despite his severe reach disadvantage. Plus, Brad was the only one who was knocked down - twice. Rashad got wobbly but Brad never capitalized as effectively. Yet, this was the split decision. I felt that Brad desperately needed a big KO to deserve a win. Diaz was pushing Sanchez on the ground, neutralizing Sanchez's strikes while constantly on the offense, trying submissions. Perhaps those newer to the ground fight aren't quite as aware of the subtleties of the ground game. I'm no expert but I'm used to watching for the positioning of all four limbs, the torso, and the hips. The Diaz/Sanchez ground game was much better than the ground game in Stevenson/Cummo. Yet, this fight was the unanimous decision. I must admit, as I did above, that Diego finally came to a fight looking ready, but it was much closer IMO than the judges gave credit for.

I've seen many of Shamrock's fights, and don't wish to see anymore. He was finished the day that MMA evolved from a competition of individual disciplines into a true integrated sport. He was KO'd, plain and simple, and should take the hint and stop embarrasing himself, because his last few performances are absolutely pitiful, save his big (yeah, right) victory over Kimo.

I agree Rashad deserved the victory, no question. He was more effective, but Brad did land more shots, and when the fight was on the ground, Rashad was purely on the defensive. It was closer than it looked, but the bottom line is who's more effective, and Rashad was.

I watch a good deal of Pride FC and Nogueira, so I know the subtleties of the ground game good enough. Diaz was attempting, but not succeeding at any submissions/maneuvers. Also keep in mind it is very possible to have a close 30-27 unanimous decision. Sanchez won all the rounds, doesn't mean it wasn't close or competetive. It's quite possible, and happens often, for a fighter to narrowly win all 3 rounds 10-9. Cummo/Stevenson was a bit more lopsided, with Cummo really only mounting an offense towards the end. Most of the fight he was fending off Joe's strikes and wiggling free of submission attempts.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeAmEye I've seen many of Shamrock's fights, and don't wish to see anymore. He was finished the day that MMA evolved from a competition of individual disciplines into a true integrated sport. He was KO'd, plain and simple, and should take the hint and stop embarrasing himself, because his last few performances are absolutely pitiful, save his big (yeah, right) victory over Kimo. I agree Rashad deserved the victory, no question. He was more effective, but Brad did land more shots, and when the fight was on the ground, Rashad was purely on the defensive. It was closer than it looked, but the bottom line is who's more effective, and Rashad was. I watch a good deal of Pride FC and Nogueira, so I know the subtleties of the ground game good enough. Diaz was attempting, but not succeeding at any submissions/maneuvers. Also keep in mind it is very possible to have a close 30-27 unanimous decision. Sanchez won all the rounds, doesn't mean it wasn't close or competetive. It's quite possible, and happens often, for a fighter to narrowly win all 3 rounds 10-9. Cummo/Stevenson was a bit more lopsided, with Cummo really only mounting an offense towards the end. Most of the fight he was fending off Joe's strikes and wiggling free of submission attempts.

Well, enough about Shamrock. We'll probably have to agree to disagree. Did you see the short fight with Sakuraba? Another farce.

Brad was landing more shots but in boxing, there's clean punches and effective aggression, which combines aggression with clean punches. Now Brad was moving forward and was aggressive, but the problem was that he didn't land many clean punches and it was therefore not effective. It was impressive how he hung in there, but I would say that 80% of his punches were thrown out of sheer heart and determination, but lacking zing and did not land cleanly, in any case. Bottom line, he didn't hurt Rashad as much. When you say that Rashad was on the ground and defensive, do you mean the 30 seconds he was on his back? What about the many minutes he was on top? Unfortunately, ground and pound is simply not a very quick or easy way to finish a fight or get a KO.

In the case of Diaz, you have to consider that submission attempts count for a lot more than strikes on the ground. At least, I consider them to be worth much more...Neither of them were very close to finishing the other, though a submission is usually more likely than a KO when on the ground (with proficient submission artists.)

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo Well, enough about Shamrock. We'll probably have to agree to disagree. Did you see the short fight with Sakuraba? Another farce. Brad was landing more shots but in boxing, there's clean punches and effective aggression, which combines aggression with clean punches. Now Brad was moving forward and was aggressive, but the problem was that he didn't land many clean punches and it was therefore not effective. It was impressive how he hung in there, but I would say that 80% of his punches were thrown out of sheer heart and determination, but lacking zing and did not land cleanly, in any case. Bottom line, he didn't hurt Rashad as much. When you say that Rashad was on the ground and defensive, do you mean the 30 seconds he was on his back? What about the many minutes he was on top? Unfortunately, ground and pound is simply not a very quick or easy way to finish a fight or get a KO. In the case of Diaz, you have to consider that submission attempts count for a lot more than strikes on the ground. At least, I consider them to be worth much more...Neither of them were very close to finishing the other, though a submission is usually more likely than a KO when on the ground (with proficient submission artists.)

Well, I see it this way. In the Stevenson/Cummo fight, Joe had Luke in several submissions. Perhaps not fully locked in, because the fight would have ended in a tapout at that point, but close, and clearly in a position Luke needed to get out of. I never saw that in the Diaz/Sanchez fight. Diaz tried several times, but never had Sanchez in any real danger of a submission, so in that case, whatever strikes Sanchez did land while on top were more effective. Had Diaz come closer to actually locking something in, I may have seen it differently. Positioning alone doesn't actually score, whereas strikes, when landed and however effective/ineffective do. A submission fighter is at a disadvantage in this regard.

 

[ooheadsoo]

That's the thing. Positioning and aggression in the ground game does score

(imo) That's what I think makes it pretty even in my book. The submissions were forcing Diego to escape. If Diaz had been attempting but had had his attempts stuffed by Diego's wrestling and strikes, then it'd be a different story. Otherwise, ground fighters would never win other than by submission, even if they controlled the pace of the entire fight. Unfortunately, in the UFC, this may actually happen, but it wouldn't happen in certain other large events.

In terms of striking, in the end, Diaz also scored the larger cut and in a much more dangerous position (over the eye) but that's a separate issue.

Oh yeah. In terms of striking, Rashad's two knockdowns should have cinched a 2 point victory in both rounds where it happened, given the lack of any other significant action. Given Brad's lack of an answer, I think that's fair. There's just no way it could be a split.

 

[DarkAngel]

Was watching UFC Knockouts 1,2,3 on Spike TV yesterday and saw where they announced the coaches for two teams for UF3 show this spring:

Ken Shamrock
Tito Ortiz

Could make for some fireworks/trash talk between coaches to add to the usual drama in the UF house and workouts/matches between contestants.

 

[JiiEf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel TNA is OK but not as well produced as RAW.

I agree, they got a massive amount of raw talent on the roster (a lot of thanks for that goes to Johnny Ace for making most of the people available to them, I have no idea what's up with that guy), but the production side of the thing is really really rough. OTOH, I haven't watched an episode in months, so things could have changed.

/JF

 

[bpm2000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel Was watching UFC Knockouts 1,2,3 on Spike TV yesterday and saw where they announced the coaches for two teams for UF3 show this spring: Ken Shamrock Tito Ortiz Could make for some fireworks/trash talk between coaches to add to the usual drama in the UF house and workouts/matches between contestants.

Yea saw that on UFC56.. total hype machine right there with the fued between the two - but COULD make for interesting fights. Either their ranting and immaturity will get the better of the two and itll be a crappy show (or good depending on who you ask) or it'll fuel their desire to win against each other. Tito has a pretty damn solid work ethic on his cardio and such so he could probably whip some people into shape. With the return of Bj Penn in the UFC as well, upcoming UFCs could be pretty interesting.

Couture vs Liddell in Feb.. whats everyones take on the rubber?

 

[ooheadsoo]

Couture unless he tries to overwhelm Liddell again. But I don't think he will, it only worked the first time. If he manages to clinch, Liddell will have a hard time breaking stalemate.

*sigh* Tito as trainer might mean a lot of boring GnP. That's what he does, after all. It wins fights, it's just not terribly entertaining.

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpm2000 Yea saw that on UFC56.. total hype machine right there with the fued between the two - but COULD make for interesting fights. Either their ranting and immaturity will get the better of the two and itll be a crappy show (or good depending on who you ask) or it'll fuel their desire to win against each other. Tito has a pretty damn solid work ethic on his cardio and such so he could probably whip some people into shape. With the return of Bj Penn in the UFC as well, upcoming UFCs could be pretty interesting. Couture vs Liddell in Feb.. whats everyones take on the rubber?

Couture/Liddell III is a tough call. On the one hand, Couture completely dominated Liddell in the first fight. Second time around it was one good shot for Liddell. Obviously we didn't get to see what would have happened had the fight been taken to the ground as in the first, so saying this may be premature, but Liddell didn't show a tactical adjustment or advancement in ground skills. Given that, if Couture can avoid another big shot, he should win the rubber match. I think he'll do just that. This time, though, I think Chuck goes the distance and Couture takes the decision.