Tube amps better after all?
Jan 16, 2003 at 6:26 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 11

Czilla9000

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1. JAZZ's post about direct path, where the EMP sounded very close to DP sound.


2.This article about THD not really meaning much:http://www.aloha-audio.com/library/FindingCG.html



So...after all these years....have tubes amps really been misjudged unfairley?
 
Jan 16, 2003 at 5:09 PM Post #2 of 11
Yes.
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Jan 16, 2003 at 7:24 PM Post #3 of 11
Quote:

Originally posted by Czilla9000
So...after all these years....have tubes amps really been misjudged unfairly?


Maybe. Since I can only refer to the EMP: it doesn't do all things right – there are some things transistors obviously do better. I'm currently occupied with auditioning the Corda HA-2, and I do think both principles have their strengths and weaknesses, and it's more an individual desicion to which sonic criteria one gives more weight and to which less. Personally I think that for music purposes the tube has a tiny advantage, but this may change... I still have not come to an end with the HA-2.
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Jan 16, 2003 at 8:36 PM Post #4 of 11
As with solid-state, not all tube amps have the same performance. To further complicate the issue, some tube circuits that seem to measure well don't sound as good in real-world use as one might hope.

If the goal is a "tubey" sound, bloated and rolled-off, that is easy to accomplish with low-performance tube circuits. Poorly-executed attempts to improve the performance may result in the unit sounding more like mediocre solid state.

At the state of the art, however, the very best solid-state and tube circuits tend to sound more alike than different, with perhaps some variation in flavor. Both design philosophies can lead to results that are delightfully realistic. But I admit that my vote would go to the ultimate tube circuit.

My design philosophy involves using a single triode stage in Class A with no negative feedback, and stepping down the voltage and impedance with a specially-designed autotransformer. This results in extremely high performance (either measuring or listening), with only four parts in the signal path (volume control, triode, blocking cap and autotransformer).

I like to avoid feedback because of its effect on sonics, even though it improves measured performance. As far as I know, it isn't possible to do solid state without feedback, or a low parts count (I don't count an op-amp as one part).

But the above is just my design philosophy...certainly there are very fine-sounding solid state units out there. I would like to have a chance to compare some of the higher end SS units with my Espressivo amp. Any plans for a Seattle meet in the near future??
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Jan 17, 2003 at 7:32 AM Post #5 of 11
gdahl,

That is one nice looking amp! You have got to sell a DIY kit for all of us tube amp lovers since doc bottleheads kit probably won't be available for quite awhile.

what are the advantages/disadvantages of a triode powered amp (like yours) versus a pentode powered headphone amp?

it looks like your amp uses el84 tubes which is a pentode power tube i believe. what role does the el84 tubes play in the amp since you're using the 3A/167M's (triode?) power tubes?

-a tube noobie
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Jan 17, 2003 at 7:46 AM Post #6 of 11
Hmmm...do tube amps have less parts than solid states amps (if the opamp counts for more than one part)
 
Jan 18, 2003 at 6:34 AM Post #7 of 11
Thanks, Tone!

Don't hold your breath for a kit, though I might offer built units sometime in the future. And according to what I have heard from Doc Bottlehead, he will only offer completed units instead of kits. The parts cost for my unit was about $1400, so it wouldn't exactly be a cheap kit anyway.

You could always do it yourself if you wanted, though. There is enough information on my headphone amp site to build it, if you know how to build tube components already. You would need to go to Gary Pimm for the current sources. I left out the things that an experienced builder would already know how to do, because I don't want to lead an inexperienced person to electrocute him/herself.

In my opinion, this triode design has great advantages over a pentode amp. Triodes inherently have the lowest distortion of any amplifying device. Other devices, whether tube or solid state, must have their distortion brought under control with negative feedback, which improves measured performance but is sonically detrimental. (Of course, a circuit that requires feedback will sound better with it than without it). The autotransformer steps the already-low output impedance of the triode down to even lower values. The resulting circuit has gobs of current capability, abundant linear voltage swing, a fast slew rate, and runs dead-quiet. The switchable output impedances allow matching-to-taste with any headphone.

The pentodes in the Espressivo are the active element in the current sources (one per channel). The current source feeds electrons to the plate of the triode at a constant rate, regardless of the signal swing. In the old days, this would be done (imperfectly) with a choke. The current source functions as a choke of nearly infinite impedance, allowing virtually no supply noise into the audio circuit, and preventing the audio signal from modulating the supply. Gary Pimm's extremely advanced current source circuit is what makes this approach especially successful.

I suppose the current souce weakens the "low parts count" argument, but the signal path still just consists of a few parts.

Czilla9000: Yes, tube amps can be built with fewer parts, though of course some tube designers take a complex approach. I prefer to keep the circuit path simple and direct. I believe in choosing the most linear parts, and trying to use them in a way that will allow them to perform to their best capability.

One way to compare tube and solid-state designs (in terms of parts count) would be to look at discrete SS designs instead of those using chips. I think the Gilmore amp is a discrete design (and a great-sounding one, from all reports!), so it might make a good example of my statement about relative parts count.
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Jan 18, 2003 at 2:48 PM Post #8 of 11
Quote:

I might offer built units sometime in the future.


gdahl,
please do! Will they work with the German mains voltage of 230V?

My wife will hate you for this.
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Jan 18, 2003 at 7:12 PM Post #9 of 11
Quote:

Originally posted by gdahl
Thanks, Tone!

Don't hold your breath for a kit, though I might offer built units sometime in the future. And according to what I have heard from Doc Bottlehead, he will only offer completed units instead of kits. The parts cost for my unit was about $1400, so it wouldn't exactly be a cheap kit anyway.



Hey thanks for the info gdahl!

I have very little experience with electronics stuff so i probably wouldn't be able to build a kit anyways unless i had extremely detailed instructions (basically idiot proof
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). I imagine a built unit would cost on the order of a couple of grand. A cheaper unit built with cheaper components would no doubt sell like crazy around here.

btw it sounds like you have alot of juice in your amp. how many watts per channel does your headphone amp put out?

Hopefully we'll have a seattle meet someday so i can listen to your amp!

I've heard that doc bottleheads headphone amp is on a long list of things he has to work on so we probably won't be seeing his amp for a long time.
 
Jan 18, 2003 at 7:38 PM Post #10 of 11
gdahl, "As far as I know, it isn't possible to do solid state without feedback, or a low parts count (I don't count an op-amp as one part). "...

my Monarchy amp has zero global feedback (it's even stamped on the front faceplate, "zero feedback"), though apparently it uses a small amount of feedback somewhere. ...i'm not too knowledgable about circuits... but apparently yes, solid states can have zero feedback. i must add... i took this amp to my friend's lab at the univeristy where they study amplifiers among other devices... and we measured with a $30,000 analyzer. guess what?--the measured performance of the Monarchy SUCKS. high frequency extension is good.... but low end is a little rolled off, but not bad. but where it is really bad is the distortion... if you look at the graph, the curve is not nearly as smooth as the other amp i measured, the Hafler. there are bumps and dips everywhere, both small and large. but it is claimed that despite the higher distortion, zero feedback circuits sound better. dunno about that.... both the Hafler and Monarchy sound fine to me.
 
Jan 18, 2003 at 7:41 PM Post #11 of 11
Just my two cents (I'm too busy today to post anything long), every design involves some engineering compromises. Tube designs happen to involve compromises that tend to sound good, e.g. inherent class A, even harmonic distortion dominates, simple circuits, low or no feedback (thus less phase distortion), no need for heat sinking, etc.
 

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