[jsaliga]

Jazz represents about 70% of my music listening. I like to think that my taste in jazz is fairly ecclectic. I buy and enjoy big band and small group swing, dixieland, cool, bop, hard bop, post bop, fusion, jazz-funk, modern creative, avant garde, and free jazz. There are some subgenres that I do not personally care for, such as crossover jazz, jazz-pop, and other forms of jazz that tend to be closer to new age and mainstream instrumental pop music.

I have considerable experience with the European free jazz scene and know the work of sax squonkers such as Evan Parker and Peter Brötzmann quite well, just to name a few.

I am also familiar with some of the European chamber and small group ensemble jazz on the ECM label. I don't mean to offend anyone who enjoys this sort of music, but personally I find a great deal of it very bland, uninspired, and pedestrian. Souless, lacking fire and imagination are other words that I might use to describe my feelings about it.

So I am starting this thread in the hopes of sparking some discussion about the European jazz scene, both past and present. Suggestions are welcome, but I don't want to turn this thread into an out-of-control listfest. If you are going to make a suggestion, then please do us all the courtesy of telling us a little about the music and why you think it is worthwhile.

I did try a search on this topic and found it interesting that five years ago someone else on Head-Fi started a topic on European jazz. It drew zero replies. Of course, the OP did not put very much effort into his post and seemed more interested in list-building than talking about the music.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f9/ver...an-jazz-58668/

My expectations for this thread, however, are very low. But I thought it would be worth a try.

--Jerome

 

[wovenhand]

I am by no means jazz savvy, but an album that is supremely outstanding is Jan Johansson's "Jazz På Svenska" from 1963 (or was it '64..?). Jan Johansson was (he died in a car crash 1968) a piano player which played so tastefully and with such emotion that I get goosebumps.
The album I'm referring to is his interpretation of Swedish folk songs done in a real melancholic and somber way. Jan himself on piano and Georg Riedel on upright bass.
One of my favorite albums of all time. It's also the best selling jazz album ever here in Sweden (and rightfully so).

I don't know if it's something that necessarily fits what you're looking for, but maybe you'll dig it anyway.

 

[tru blu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wovenhand /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am by no means jazz savvy, but an album that is supremely outstanding is Jan Johansson's "Jazz På Svenska" from 1963 (or was it '64..?).

Fine record…Johansson owes quite a bit to John Lewis of the Modern Jazz Quartet—and Oscar Peterson, too.

The guy whose band kinda floors me is Danish guitarist Pierre Dørge. He was pretty tight with Don Cherry and John Tchicai early on, but his little big band the New Jungle Orchestra went back and explored Duke Ellington's early period music and then turned it kinda globalist, with rhythms from Africa, the Caribbean and South America. He's also rearranged folksy melodies by Danish composer Carl Nielssen. Dørge's guitar sound is pretty limpid. If I was looking for one album, I'd get Music from the Danish Jungle.

Have you ever heard Change Of Scenes, the album that the Kenny Clarke/Francy Boland Big Band made with Stan Getz as featured soloist? Recorded in Köln in 1971…the band's about 50-50 split between European players and American emigres.

The thing about "European" jazz is that sometimes, not necessarily sonically but psychologically, I think its makers were faced with a crisis of identity. I think it was the musician-critic Mike Zwerin who wrote something like, after Europeans embraced American jazz musicians and learned from them, they didn't necessarily want Americans hanging around taking all the good gigs. So what happened after the Americans kinda "left" or stopped emigrating was a propensity for Europeans to label what they were playing "new" forms of "European" jazz (a sort of "this-is-our-music" thing) when it was basically just good jazz-based creative music. It's understandable, because I'm sure that for a time many European musicians had to run up against a lot of American chauvinism, i.e., folks who think European jazz musicians could never be as good or "authentic" as American ones. Musicians like Dave Holland, a Brit who emigrated to America, have spoken very articulately about this.

Oh, and one of the finest piano trio records I've heard in nearly two decades is by an Italian, Enrico Pieranunzi. It's called First Song, and the rhythm section is Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins.

In the final analysis, I just try to look for good players, no matter where they come from. I mean, one could start a whole thread about Japanese jazz musicians, too…there're so many great ones out there that the international jazz circuit just doesn't get introduced to.

 

[jsaliga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wovenhand /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am by no means jazz savvy, but an album that is supremely outstanding is Jan Johansson's "Jazz På Svenska" from 1963 (or was it '64..?)...

I appreciate the suggestion and discussion of the music. I found some samples of this on Amazon.com and was intrigued enough by what I head to place an order for it. Thank you again.

Quote:

I don't know if it's something that necessarily fits what you're looking for, but maybe you'll dig it anyway.

I'm not necessarily looking for music that is similar to my experience with other subgenres of jazz. On the contrary, what I am trying to find is something of European origin that is decidedly different that features musically interesting compositions and inspired, expressive playing. My own searches have left me unimpresssed, and I am hoping that a little guidance from more knowledgeable forum members might be just what I need to get me pointed in the right direction.

--Jerome

 

[jsaliga]

Excellent post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tru blu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Fine record…Johansson owes quite a bit to John Lewis of the Modern Jazz Quartet—and Oscar Peterson, too. The guy whose band kinda floors me is Danish guitarist Pierre Dørge. He was pretty tight with Don Cherry and John Tchicai early on, but his little big band the New Jungle Orchestra went back and explored Duke Ellington's early period music and then turned it kinda globalist, with rhythms from Africa, the Caribbean and South America. He's also rearranged folksy melodies by Danish composer Carl Nielssen. Dørge's guitar sound is pretty limpid. If I was looking for one album, I'd get Music from the Danish Jungle.

Some of this music is on Rhapsody, so I will be sure to check it out.

Quote:

Have you ever heard Change Of Scenes, the album that the Kenny Clarke/Francy Boland Big Band made with Stan Getz as featured soloist? Recorded in Köln in 1971…the band's about 50-50 split between European players and American emigres.

Haven't heard of that one, and I have a ton of stuff that Getz did as both a leader and a sideman. You learn something new every day.

Quote:

The thing about "European" jazz is that sometimes, not necessarily sonically but psychologically, I think its makers were faced with a crisis of identity. I think it was the musician-critic Mike Zwerin who wrote something like, after Europeans embraced American jazz musicians and learned from them, they didn't necessarily want Americans hanging around taking all the good gigs. So what happened after the Americans kinda "left" or stopped emigrating was a propensity for Europeans to label what they were playing "new" forms of "European" jazz (a sort of "this-is-our-music" thing) when it was basically just good jazz-based creative music. It's understandable, because I'm sure that for a time many European musicians had to run up against a lot of American chauvinism, i.e., folks who think European jazz musicians could never be as good or "authentic" as American ones. Musicians like Dave Holland, a Brit who emigrated to America, have spoken very articulately about this.

That's an astute observation. My experience with European jazz is not as broad as yours, but in my limited experience the main difference between American and Europen styles is that the former is much more informed by the blues.

Quote:

Oh, and one of the finest piano trio records I've heard in nearly two decades is by an Italian, Enrico Pieranunzi. It's called First Song, and the rhythm section is Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins.

Great! While your specific suggestion is not on Rhapsody, a dozen or so of his other albums are there.

Quote:

In the final analysis, I just try to look for good players, no matter where they come from. I mean, one could start a whole thread about Japanese jazz musicians, too…there're so many great ones out there that the international jazz circuit just doesn't get introduced to.

Our goals are the same. The reason I brought up the Europeans specifically is because I have some experience with it and afterwards asked myself, "is this it?" I was sure there was more diversity in European jazz than what I was hearing.

--Jerome

 

[wovenhand]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif I appreciate the suggestion and discussion of the music. I found some samples of this on Amazon.com and was intrigued enough by what I head to place an order for it. Thank you again.

Cool! Do post your impressions what you thought once it's arrived and had time to sink in. My second favorite album of his is "Jazz På Ryska". Same idea, but russian folk songs instead and on this album he has a whole band. Arne Domnérus plays on this album as well, perhaps thee most legendary Swedish jazz guy. Great, great album as well.
And production wise both albums are just pure bliss. Lovely warm vintage tones.

 

[4heckssake]

Not sure category of jazz this fits into but maybe check out Esbjörn Svensson Trio. I like them as their music, while founded in jazz, has a life and vibrancy found in rock and classical.
There is plenty to sample out on youtube
Hope it doesn't fall into the bland ECM type you describe above (i know what you mean there) I don't think their work does.

 

[green0153]

I listen to quite a lot of jazz and Mario Biondi particulary his live album is great.Then there is Sergio Cammariere a really good pianist,Petra Magoni & Feruccio Spinetti,Jim Tomilson.

Hope it helps....

 

[koninger]

Maybe some expert can recommend something from Hungary and Romania from the sixties? There should have been some artists/performances suiting even eclectic tastes. I'm by far not expert enough for a well-founded specific recommendation, though.

 

[sniks7]

You need to start at the beginning: I'm very surprised there's no mention here of Spike Hughes. Although Coleman Hawkins and Henry Allen aren't everyone's cup of tea..

And for posterity, when this thread is ten years old and buried in a thick soup of rat music and plutonium heavy boy bands that have never heard of Robert Plant, I'd like the name of Acker Bilk to come up on a search.

With a name like that he's got to be British. Or from Ukbekistan or something. Or maybe Iceland: they have funny names over there I've heard.

Anyway, I'm off back to the thread on Vote For the Thinnest Person Who Sang a Song and Made the Top 50 in 2008.

 

[jsaliga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniks7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You need to start at the beginning: I'm very surprised there's no mention here of Spike Hughes. Although Coleman Hawkins and Henry Allen aren't everyone's cup of tea.

There is not very much written about Spike Hughes that I could find. There are some tracks on Rhapsody that I was able to listen to. I mean no disrespect, but based on what I was able to hear I don't see how any of that music was much different than what was happening in American jazz at the time, especially in the 1930s. But that could merely be due to the lack of material currently at my disposal.

My intent in this thread, and it is my fault for not making this clear, was not a complete survey of European jazz music and musicians. I was mainly interested in getting a better handle on European jazz in the post-bop era forward (roughly 1960 - present). I certainly find a lot of uniqueness in the music from that period that I have so far sampled...but the jury is still out as to whether or not it is music that I can truly appreciate.

Quote:

And for posterity, when this thread is ten years old and buried in a thick soup of rat music and plutonium heavy boy bands that have never heard of Robert Plant, I'd like the name of Acker Bilk to come up on a search.

There is a ton of his stuff on Rhapsody. Very capably played Dixieland/New Orleans/Trad jazz. But at its core this is American music played by British musicians.

Quote:

With a name like that he's got to be British. Or from Ukbekistan or something. Or maybe Iceland: they have funny names over there I've heard.

He's British.

Quote:

Anyway, I'm off back to the thread on Vote For the Thinnest Person Who Sang a Song and Made the Top 50 in 2008.

Too funny.

Thanks for the post and the suggestions.

--Jerome

 

[jsaliga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4heckssake /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not sure category of jazz this fits into but maybe check out Esbjörn Svensson Trio. I like them as their music, while founded in jazz, has a life and vibrancy found in rock and classical. There is plenty to sample out on youtube.

I vaguely recall news of Svennson's tragic death in a diving accident last year but I don't think I have tried any of his music. That will soon change later today. Thanks for calling my attention to it.

Quote:

Hope it doesn't fall into the bland ECM type you describe above (i know what you mean there) I don't think their work does.

I have a Rhapsody subscription so there is very little risk in me trying something out if it is carried by the service. If I find it worthwhile then I will order CDs. But I appreciate the tought. Thanks.

--Jerome

 

[m0ofassa]

You can probably check out the bossa nova years - because at that time a lot of people were playing european flavours (stan getz for example) and a particular guy (sax) I like from europe from around the time of fusion who was playing old stuff... really cant remember him. Also theres a guitar player I cant remember the name of either. GAH. Will edit this post later.
[size=xx-small]does candy dulfer count? lol. I dont care if you dont like her, shes *****in HOT. (was)[/size]
EDIT: I think I remembered the guitarist. English guy named John McLaughlan who made it fairly large in the fusion department. A member of the Mahavishnu Orchestra. Interesting stuff. Not sure if it's what you want though, since he plays a lot of indian sounds.
will edit later for the sax player
EDIT: The sax guy was on an ECM label, and you cant go wrong with ECM is you are into that sort of sound.
A guy who isnt european but plays fairly european/is very popular in europe is Pat Metheney.

 

[pdennis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tru blu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh, and one of the finest piano trio records I've heard in nearly two decades is by an Italian, Enrico Pieranunzi. It's called First Song, and the rhythm section is Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins. In the final analysis, I just try to look for good players, no matter where they come from.

Agreed -- I feel that most recent 'international' ensembles like the one you posted above reveal few intrinsic differences between contemporary jazz players of different nations. (Emphasis on 'contemporary').

Another example would be the duet album by Dave Douglas and Martial Solal, "Rue de Seine".

On the other hand, I can't imagine the sounds of the recording "Skies of Europe" by the Italian Instabile Orchestra coming out of an American band (this is a definitely non-pedestrian ECM disc by the way). Some jazz artists also use local instruments and music in such a way that their music is intrinsically unique: I recently become aware of the Hungarian musician Mihály Dresch, for example, and have been enjoying his album "Folyondar" for Dresch's adventurous tenor playing and some surprisingly appealing violin and cymbalom solos.

I'm not that familiar with a lot of European jazz, though -- I tend to be a Latin guy more than anything these days. I'll be watching this thread with interest.

 

[tru blu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdennis /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another example would be the duet album by Dave Douglas and Martial Solal, "Rue de Seine". On the other hand, I can't imagine the sounds of the recording "Skies of Europe" by the Italian Instabile Orchestra coming out of an American band (this is a definitely non-pedestrian ECM disc by the way).

Funny, I actually pulled out Rue de Seine yesterday afternoon, but never got around to playing it. Probably tomorrow…

Have you heard The Owner of the River Bank, the disc the Instabiles made with Cecil Taylor? It's also nice, and I think, as Jerome said up above, what differs is that European bands are perhaps less blues-oriented.