[Deceit]

Hello Head-Fi. I've never given high-end audio equipment much thought because I've always been more keen to spend more money on PC-related gear, and not so much on audio. I think most of it went into expensive displays, actually... but as of right now I'm ready to take the plunge into the wonderful world (or so I've been told) of Head-Fi. I don't want to bore you so I'll get to the crux of this post.
 
First, it's hard to say exactly "what I am looking for." My understanding of audiophile terminology is quite amateur, even though I do have the glossary open on another page. 
 
Second, I'm hoping to end within a budget of $250 - 300 USD. I can go higher, but since I don't actually know what "high mid-range" or "really high-end" headphones sound like, I probably won't be missing out on much. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.
 
Third, my musical tastes. They primarily revolve around a weird collection of electronica (mostly trance and industrial), metal (mostly very heavy post/avant-garde/sludge/doom, power/symphonic/melodic death), classical (a lot of Baroque & Romantic era stuff, a little less Classical, some more modern e.g. Beethoven, Wagner, Chopin, Bach, Rachmaninoff). 
 
The way I understand it so far, is that certain characteristics of certain headphones are actually anathema to one another, e.g. a "dark" sounding headphone cannot possibly be "bright" as well. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
Where does this leave me? I suppose it's simple enough to say that I love the midrange, and I love bass. Hell, I love everything as I've been trained as a classical pianist for the past 14 years or so of my life. I love things that are natural sounding, and I suppose I feel comfortable in saying I love a "big soundstage" even though I don't even know what a "big soundstange" sounds like comparatively to a small one, because more than anything I AM A NOOB.
 
Now, I've been looking at different headphones. I've learned a bit by just lurking and doing my own research, quietly. I've found the HD 598 to be reasonably priced, but apparently the DT 880 Pro 250 Ohm are also selling for the $250 price, for some reason. All the other 880s are $300+ as far as I know. I'm also considering the Hifiman HE-400, because planar magnetic headphones just seems like a really cool technology, and I love cool technology. Now, that's not to say I will spend an extra $150 just so I can say "I have orthodynamics," because that would be insane. 
 
Before I ramble on any longer I will just quit right now, and await any input you guys may have. Sorry if any of this is confusing or psychotic. Off I go then...
 
Edit - for Amp/DAC I will get the Magni/Modi combo.

 

[streetdragon]

Do you have an amp? (i assume not, what do you plug it into? direct into soundcard?) the DT880 250 ohm and especially the HE 400 really need one. The hd598, not so much, but still would be adviced to use one on it.

 

[Deceit]

I will get the Schiit Magni/Modi combo when I buy my headphone.

 

[Owenpri]

If they're for home use you could get the Grado sr225i for about that price. They have a low impedence so they don't need an amp, but one would definitely improve sound. Grados are known for their incredible midrange and detail, great for classical.

 

[Deceit]

I saw that the "normal" price of the DT880 250 ohm (as well as 600 ohm) are normally around $350 USD. The HD598 seems a bit less expensive. Are the DT880 superior to the HD598 in any areas? I've also read from multiple threads that the Sennheisers are "boring" and they "lack bass/bass extension." I won't care much for bass when listening to classical but when listening to really heavy (and by that I mean a lot of heavy guitar riffs/bass) metal I think it would make a big deal.
 
As for the Grade SR225i, I have began researching into it. Seems to be of mixed opinions, especially comparing to Sennheisers and Hifiman HE-400 as well. 
 
Thanks!

 

[Biscuitz]

I have some input that might help you! But I just got into a game (LoL), so I'll edit this when I'm finished.

 

[Docks]

A can that does electronica and classical very well would be a dream.
However: classical requirement = flat, open for soundstage.
electronica requirement = bass, isolation for deeper sub bass.
 
The DT880s are a great can but will likely be too bright and lacking in bass for you with electronic.

 

[Biscuitz]

Quote:

Hello Head-Fi. I've never given high-end audio equipment much thought because I've always been more keen to spend more money on PC-related gear, and not so much on audio. I think most of it went into expensive displays, actually... but as of right now I'm ready to take the plunge into the wonderful world (or so I've been told) of Head-Fi. I don't want to bore you so I'll get to the crux of this post.
 
First, it's hard to say exactly "what I am looking for." My understanding of audiophile terminology is quite amateur, even though I do have the glossary open on another page. 
 
Second, I'm hoping to end within a budget of $250 - 300 USD. I can go higher, but since I don't actually know what "high mid-range" or "really high-end" headphones sound like, I probably won't be missing out on much. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.
 
Third, my musical tastes. They primarily revolve around a weird collection of electronica (mostly trance and industrial), metal (mostly very heavy post/avant-garde/sludge/doom, power/symphonic/melodic death), classical (a lot of Baroque & Romantic era stuff, a little less Classical, some more modern e.g. Beethoven, Wagner, Chopin, Bach, Rachmaninoff). 
 
The way I understand it so far, is that certain characteristics of certain headphones are actually anathema to one another, e.g. a "dark" sounding headphone cannot possibly be "bright" as well. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
Where does this leave me? I suppose it's simple enough to say that I love the midrange, and I love bass. Hell, I love everything as I've been trained as a classical pianist for the past 14 years or so of my life. I love things that are natural sounding, and I suppose I feel comfortable in saying I love a "big soundstage" even though I don't even know what a "big soundstange" sounds like comparatively to a small one, because more than anything I AM A NOOB.
 
Now, I've been looking at different headphones. I've learned a bit by just lurking and doing my own research, quietly. I've found the HD 598 to be reasonably priced, but apparently the DT 880 Pro 250 Ohm are also selling for the $250 price, for some reason. All the other 880s are $300+ as far as I know. I'm also considering the Hifiman HE-400, because planar magnetic headphones just seems like a really cool technology, and I love cool technology. Now, that's not to say I will spend an extra $150 just so I can say "I have orthodynamics," because that would be insane. 
 
Before I ramble on any longer I will just quit right now, and await any input you guys may have. Sorry if any of this is confusing or psychotic. Off I go then...
 
Edit - for Amp/DAC I will get the Magni/Modi combo.
 

 
 
K, first off, great choice on the amp/DAC. Seriously, the Magni/Modi is a godsend combo for $200 that will literally power almost any headphone on the market. You're good there. (Yes, I have heard this combo).
 
Second off, I do want to chime in as I have some similar tastes in music, and I've heard the DT880, HD598, and HE-400, among others in your price range. As for music, I particularly love Trance and Metal - most of my metal is melodic death.
 
K, you say you love: midrange, bass, natural sound, big soundstage. That's a tall order for your price range, to be honest. Each offering will excel in a couple areas, while another offering will excel in others. Here are the options you listed and some of my impressions with each:
 
DT880
- Neutral bass presence with good extension. It's not a bass-heavy headphone, but it is accurate.
- Neutral mid presentation. It's not forward, so the mids will not jump out at you. But I wouldn't say it's recessed either. It is pretty even-handed.
- Elevated treble presentation. Gives the edge needed in aggressive music, and lends a detailed, airy sound to the headphone.
- Soundstage is great. Soundstage is roomy, has great shape and envelops nicely. It's not super-deep, but its height and width and spaciousness is so pleasant to these ears.
- Great with a host of genres. I think it sounds great with Trance and Metal! I personally don't feel you need a lot of bass presence for Trance, but rather airiness and spaciousness to work with the ethereal feel that Trance has.
- ALSO, it is SUPER COMFORTABLE! Don't discount this! It adds to the overall enjoyment of a headphone.
- Things to consider: It's a fairly bright sounding headphone. Neutral bass, mids, with bright highs = sometimes you might be craving for more bass. Sometimes the highs can sound a touch edgy with bright recordings, as well.
 
HE-400
- Flat, even-handed bass presence that extends really deep. It is elevated though, so this is a much "bassier" sounding headphone than the DT880. Bass quality is wonderful - tight and fast.
- Mids are...bad. Well, I think so. Honestly this is the biggest turnoff of this headphone, to me. Many people seem to love the mids on these, and I have no idea how. They feel very recessed, and rather sandwiched between the thick bass presence and the peaky highs. If you love mids, I can't in good conscience recommend this headphone.
- Highs are...pretty good. They have a rather bright peak that sounds just weird next to the recessed mids. It adds shimmer, but just doesn't fit with the overall tonality, imo.
- Soundstage is decent. It has OKAY depth, but has nice height and width. The soundstage presentation on the DT880, however, sounds so much more natural to me.
- Resolution and separation are fantastic! A common trait of planars. This just means it sounds nicely layered, lacks "congestion" and is very clear sounding.
- Tonality is just weird! I could not get into this headphone. Its elevated bass, recessed mids, and peaky highs make for a very unnatural presentation, in my opinion.
- Things to consider: Strange tonality (to these ears). Fairly heavy headphone that some find uncomfortable. A lot of metal is recorded with elevated bass and highs, leaving the mids recessed. Well, with this headphone those kinds of recordings will sound...bad. Just something to consider.
 
HD598
- Now this headphone I haven't heard in some time, but I can tell you this at least. It simply does not work with aggressive music, i.e. rock, metal, etc. It is a smooth sounding headphone that just seems to blunt every musical genre it touches. For a lot of genres this is nice, but not for metal. No.
- I do remember the soundstage having great depth though!
- Ridiculously comfortable headphone! Rivals the DT880 in comfort, in my experience.
- Things to consider: Haven't heard this in a while, so take this with a grain of salt! But just know that my own experience with it has been such that I would never want to buy it for the types of music I enjoy.
 
So, really I'd recommend the DT880 from the ones you've chosen. Your Magni/Modi will drive it with ease!
 
If you want to look into other options, I would recommend looking into Grados and maybe the HD600. The HD600 also does a lot right. It has a natural sound with a neutral presentation that works with most genres. It is just a touch smoother than neutral, which, like the HD598, can seem lackluster on metal. But I still manage to enjoy it with metal. I'd take the DT880 over it though.
 
Grados are polarizing because they're 1) On-ear design, which can be uncomfortable 2) Not neutral. 3) Bright highs that some find too forward. But, they are so fun sounding for the genres you've mentioned! I personally find the SR60i ($80) or SR80i ($100) with L-Cush pads ($20) is an incredible value that you might think about adding to your setup for the purposes of variety. They are very fun-sounding headphones that work really well with metal. I even really enjoy them with Trance! Pick up the SR80i if you want the more aggressive of the two (slightly more bass and treble). Grab those L-Cush pads either way as it will improve the sound substantially!
 
Can't speak to classical music, as I don't listen to it!
 
As always, take all with a grain of salt. These are my suggestions based on my experiences and my personal tastes and preferences. But thought I'd share!

 

[elwappo99]

Quote:

 
As always, take all with a grain of salt. These are my suggestions based on my experiences and my personal tastes and preferences. But thought I'd share!

 
This is a very well thought out post. Good work and explanation. 
 
I might suggest that Deceit also looks into the following:
 
Mad Dogs
AKG Q701
 
I can easily compare the above to the DT880 and HE-400 if you're interested. 

 

[Deceit]

Hey Biscuitz, thank you so much for the response. And very detailed at that. 
 
I've been listening to a friends DT770 250ohm for most of the day, with various types of music. How close would you say the DT880 are, to the DT770? 
 
My friend doesn't have an amp and mine is not here yet, so I had to drive them using... nothing (awesome, I know). This is what I noticed, and please bear with me even though the no-amp epicness will probably make you laugh and roll your eyes. They are a lot "cleaner" sounding than the crappy USB headphones I have on right now (they are a gaming sort), and I found the mids/highs to be pretty clean in general. I noticed that the instrument separation did not seem THAT great. Mind, I have no experience with planar headphones but I started to imagine in my mind that the separation would sound simply better. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but playing classical music for over 10 years should help me a little bit in this at least (or so I hope).
 
But when it came to bass, there was like... nothing. I think it had great "bass extension." Correct me if I'm describing it wrong, but what I mean by that is overall clarity and effects in the bass region were a lot cleaner sounding, e.g. the reverberations. But half of the experience for me, when listening to metal (esp. the stuff I fancy, e.g. Year of No Light, Fall of Efrafa, Behemoth, etc.) is the delivery of POWER. I want power, resonance... basically a presentation of grandeur and majesty. The same could be said of classical symphonies, but that requires a bit less "brute force" and more "clarity," so to speak.
 
I don't want to sound too confusing, so I'll shut up here. Once again, thank you very much.

 

[Biscuitz]

Quote:

Hey Biscuitz, thank you so much for the response. And very detailed at that. 
 
I've been listening to a friends DT770 250ohm for most of the day, with various types of music. How close would you say the DT880 are, to the DT770? 
 
My friend doesn't have an amp and mine is not here yet, so I had to drive them using... nothing (awesome, I know). This is what I noticed, and please bear with me even though the no-amp epicness will probably make you laugh and roll your eyes. They are a lot "cleaner" sounding than the crappy USB headphones I have on right now (they are a gaming sort), and I found the mids/highs to be pretty clean in general. I noticed that the instrument separation did not seem THAT great. Mind, I have no experience with planar headphones but I started to imagine in my mind that the separation would sound simply better. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but playing classical music for over 10 years should help me a little bit in this at least (or so I hope).
 
But when it came to bass, there was like... nothing. I think it had great "bass extension." Correct me if I'm describing it wrong, but what I mean by that is overall clarity and effects in the bass region were a lot cleaner sounding, e.g. the reverberations. But half of the experience for me, when listening to metal (esp. the stuff I fancy, e.g. Year of No Light, Fall of Efrafa, Behemoth, etc.) is the delivery of POWER. I want power, resonance... basically a presentation of grandeur and majesty. The same could be said of classical symphonies, but that requires a bit less "brute force" and more "clarity," so to speak.
 
I don't want to sound too confusing, so I'll shut up here. Once again, thank you very much.

Well, that makes things trickier. If you want reverb, then forego the HE-400 - it's all clean bass, no reverb. And the DT880 will leave you wanting, more than likely. Same with HD598...
 
You might look into closed back headphones after all. If the DT770 doesn't fit the bill, I'm not really sure what will since I don't tread the waters of closed-back headphones. Based on my gleanings from HeadFi, you might like the Denon D2000, but it might be tricky to snag a pair since they're out of production now. I've not heard it myself, but it supposedly has that deep reverberating bass you are looking for. http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AHD2000-Performance-Over-Ear-Headphones/dp/B000MVEC0Q
 
Unfortunately, at your price point I'm not sure if you can get that "brute force" and "clarity". The HE-400 has what I'd call power, and it has nice clarity too. Good instrument separation. But its bass doesn't reverb. So...
 
Idk, I don't want to make the wrong suggestion for you, so besides the headphones we've talked about I'm not sure.
 
As for the DT770 and the DT880, I unfortunately haven't heard the DT770 in a long time. But, if we look at some frequency graphs, the main difference between it and the DT880 is in bass. The DT770's have elevated bass, the DT880 has slightly rolled off sub-bass.
 
http://www.headphone.com/buildAGraph.php?buttonSelection=Compare+Headphones&graphID%5B0%5D=723&graphID%5B1%5D=713&graphID%5B2%5D=&graphID%5B3%5D=&graphType=0
 
So that's why I'm thinking if the DT770's bass doesn't do it for you, I think you might be disappointed in the DT880. And the HD598 for that matter: http://www.headphone.com/buildAGraph.php?buttonSelection=Compare+Headphones&graphID%5B0%5D=2851&graphID%5B1%5D=713&graphID%5B2%5D=&graphID%5B3%5D=&graphType=0
 
Maybe check out the Mad Dogs as well, like elwappo99 suggested. https://www.mrspeakers.com/Audiophile-fostex-t50rp-upgrades-mrspeakers-mad-dog
 
The AKG Q701 I don't think would be right for you, based on what we've established thus far. Hardly a headphone that can be described as having "brute force".

 

[aphinity]

grado alessandro ms2i:
 
http://www.alessandro-products.com/main.php?p=headphones
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/123457/ms-2-ms-2i-appreciation-thread/465#post_9359676
 

 

[elwappo99]

Quote:

Hey Biscuitz, thank you so much for the response. And very detailed at that. 
 
I've been listening to a friends DT770 250ohm for most of the day, with various types of music. How close would you say the DT880 are, to the DT770? 
 
My friend doesn't have an amp and mine is not here yet, so I had to drive them using... nothing (awesome, I know). This is what I noticed, and please bear with me even though the no-amp epicness will probably make you laugh and roll your eyes. They are a lot "cleaner" sounding than the crappy USB headphones I have on right now (they are a gaming sort), and I found the mids/highs to be pretty clean in general. I noticed that the instrument separation did not seem THAT great. Mind, I have no experience with planar headphones but I started to imagine in my mind that the separation would sound simply better. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but playing classical music for over 10 years should help me a little bit in this at least (or so I hope).
 
But when it came to bass, there was like... nothing. I think it had great "bass extension." Correct me if I'm describing it wrong, but what I mean by that is overall clarity and effects in the bass region were a lot cleaner sounding, e.g. the reverberations. But half of the experience for me, when listening to metal (esp. the stuff I fancy, e.g. Year of No Light, Fall of Efrafa, Behemoth, etc.) is the delivery of POWER. I want power, resonance... basically a presentation of grandeur and majesty. The same could be said of classical symphonies, but that requires a bit less "brute force" and more "clarity," so to speak.
 
I don't want to sound too confusing, so I'll shut up here. Once again, thank you very much.

I'm trying my best to read through and understand exactly what you're looking for, so bear with me. 
 
It sounds like on one hand you want a nice bit of bass kick, which many new and inexperienced listeners think sound like "grandeur".  On the other hand, you want clarity and instrument separation to listen to symphonies and classical music. This is a dangerous game you wish to play, and very few headphones will be able to keep up. 
 
One way to do that is with a headphone that has a good bass region and an elevated treble. Headphones include the Denon D2000 (discontinued and a little pricey now) and ultrasone HFI-780 or similar. Ultrasones are kind of in a strange spot, so if you look into them and are considering them post here, and I'll talk about them for a bit. 
 
The only other way to do it is have a balanced headphone, like the "Mad Dogs". The only problem I see with these headphones for you (I'm not trying to be insulting here) is that they are refined and balanced. They won't sound fun, grand, or boomy in the bass. They are however, incredibly accurate. So if you're recording has minute details, you'll get details. If you're recording calls for bass, you'll get the right amount of bass, all well controlled. But the bass won't be over the top. I wouldn't recommend this headphone for someone like you, but given the fact you've played classical for so long, you may be able to really appreciate the details. 
 
 
Did you purchase the Schiit combination yet? If so, it might be a good idea to wait to get them, and then pick apart the DT770 in terms of what you like and don't like. With listening to it now how do you think the bass fairs? Is it the right amount? Is it controlled? What about classical music? Keep in mind since the DT770 is closed, it won't have very good instrument separation. The Mad Dogs or Denon D7000 are some of the few that can pull this off. 

 

[flipper2gv]

Quote:

 
 
 
K, first off, great choice on the amp/DAC. Seriously, the Magni/Modi is a godsend combo for $200 that will literally power almost any headphone on the market. You're good there. (Yes, I have heard this combo).
 
Second off, I do want to chime in as I have some similar tastes in music, and I've heard the DT880, HD598, and HE-400, among others in your price range. As for music, I particularly love Trance and Metal - most of my metal is melodic death.
 
K, you say you love: midrange, bass, natural sound, big soundstage. That's a tall order for your price range, to be honest. Each offering will excel in a couple areas, while another offering will excel in others. Here are the options you listed and some of my impressions with each:
 
DT880
- Neutral bass presence with good extension. It's not a bass-heavy headphone, but it is accurate.
- Neutral mid presentation. It's not forward, so the mids will not jump out at you. But I wouldn't say it's recessed either. It is pretty even-handed.
- Elevated treble presentation. Gives the edge needed in aggressive music, and lends a detailed, airy sound to the headphone.
- Soundstage is great. Soundstage is roomy, has great shape and envelops nicely. It's not super-deep, but its height and width and spaciousness is so pleasant to these ears.
- Great with a host of genres. I think it sounds great with Trance and Metal! I personally don't feel you need a lot of bass presence for Trance, but rather airiness and spaciousness to work with the ethereal feel that Trance has.
- ALSO, it is SUPER COMFORTABLE! Don't discount this! It adds to the overall enjoyment of a headphone.
- Things to consider: It's a fairly bright sounding headphone. Neutral bass, mids, with bright highs = sometimes you might be craving for more bass. Sometimes the highs can sound a touch edgy with bright recordings, as well.
 
HE-400
- Flat, even-handed bass presence that extends really deep. It is elevated though, so this is a much "bassier" sounding headphone than the DT880. Bass quality is wonderful - tight and fast.
- Mids are...bad. Well, I think so. Honestly this is the biggest turnoff of this headphone, to me. Many people seem to love the mids on these, and I have no idea how. They feel very recessed, and rather sandwiched between the thick bass presence and the peaky highs. If you love mids, I can't in good conscience recommend this headphone.
- Highs are...pretty good. They have a rather bright peak that sounds just weird next to the recessed mids. It adds shimmer, but just doesn't fit with the overall tonality, imo.
- Soundstage is decent. It has OKAY depth, but has nice height and width. The soundstage presentation on the DT880, however, sounds so much more natural to me.
- Resolution and separation are fantastic! A common trait of planars. This just means it sounds nicely layered, lacks "congestion" and is very clear sounding.
- Tonality is just weird! I could not get into this headphone. Its elevated bass, recessed mids, and peaky highs make for a very unnatural presentation, in my opinion.
- Things to consider: Strange tonality (to these ears). Fairly heavy headphone that some find uncomfortable. A lot of metal is recorded with elevated bass and highs, leaving the mids recessed. Well, with this headphone those kinds of recordings will sound...bad. Just something to consider.
 
HD598
- Now this headphone I haven't heard in some time, but I can tell you this at least. It simply does not work with aggressive music, i.e. rock, metal, etc. It is a smooth sounding headphone that just seems to blunt every musical genre it touches. For a lot of genres this is nice, but not for metal. No.
- I do remember the soundstage having great depth though!
- Ridiculously comfortable headphone! Rivals the DT880 in comfort, in my experience.
- Things to consider: Haven't heard this in a while, so take this with a grain of salt! But just know that my own experience with it has been such that I would never want to buy it for the types of music I enjoy.
 
So, really I'd recommend the DT880 from the ones you've chosen. Your Magni/Modi will drive it with ease!
 
If you want to look into other options, I would recommend looking into Grados and maybe the HD600. The HD600 also does a lot right. It has a natural sound with a neutral presentation that works with most genres. It is just a touch smoother than neutral, which, like the HD598, can seem lackluster on metal. But I still manage to enjoy it with metal. I'd take the DT880 over it though.
 
Grados are polarizing because they're 1) On-ear design, which can be uncomfortable 2) Not neutral. 3) Bright highs that some find too forward. But, they are so fun sounding for the genres you've mentioned! I personally find the SR60i ($80) or SR80i ($100) with L-Cush pads ($20) is an incredible value that you might think about adding to your setup for the purposes of variety. They are very fun-sounding headphones that work really well with metal. I even really enjoy them with Trance! Pick up the SR80i if you want the more aggressive of the two (slightly more bass and treble). Grab those L-Cush pads either way as it will improve the sound substantially!
 
Can't speak to classical music, as I don't listen to it!
 
As always, take all with a grain of salt. These are my suggestions based on my experiences and my personal tastes and preferences. But thought I'd share!

Can't disagree more with you on the metal thing.
 
You just can't listen to metal with hard hitting headphones ala m-100. On paper it sounds great, but with time, you get really fatigued fast with the double bass drum thumping your ear drums. I know because I use the HD598 and it's been the best metal headphones for me. You can hear every single cymbals, every single bass string stroke, you don't miss nothing. And that's in a clustered mix like you find on metal songs. Just imagine how well it resolves on Jazz.

I'm very biased for the HD598, and I do think that for the price (considering you'll give enough burn in time for them), you'll be happy for ANY style of music. It's a big BIG soundstage, with tight bass, and airy mids and treble. 

 

[Deceit]

I will attempt to find a pair of HD598 to listen to, and I will be getting the Schiit combo pretty soon (as soon as tax returns get here! hehe..). 
 
Remember my experience with the DT770 is without an amp, so that probably skews things quite a bit. I'm also reading through everything that's been posted since my last post, sorry if I don't respond right now but it's a lot of information and considering I am a complete noob, I thank you all for helping me out. So many choices... this business is much harder than I thought at first.
 
As for "reverberation," it was a term I threw out loosely. If most high quality headphones don't display that quality then I'm not going to complain too much. It's also nice reading different opinions on here regarding different phones/styles.