[m-i-c-k-e-y]

What I am expecting from Topping to complete the stack is a Network player/streamer hopefully w/ DDC function. Or if not, as two separate devices.

 

[Marlowe]

And it is 50% more expensive than the original D90.

Check your math or your facts; this is way off. The D90 (without MQA) was originally $700, so the $900 SE is roughly 28% more expensive. A better comparison might be to the original price of the D90 MQA ($800); the SE is 12.5% more expensive. (Though you can certainly argue that the the $100 bump for the original MQA version was overpriced; I got it on sale.)

 

[ZeusOdin]

Right? If no one mentioned ASR or Zeos on this site again we'd all be better off.

I am a new member, so be gentle. What's wrong with ASR? The site seems pretty pedantic but there is value in that, no?

 

[Marlowe]

I am a new member, so be gentle. What's wrong with ASR? The site seems pretty pedantic but there is value in that, no?

ASR can provide some useful information. The problem many people (including myself) have with the site is that is that it doesn't merely make test results the most important factor in choosing audio gear but pretty much the only factor. Their "reviews" for DACs and amps pretty much consist only of a presentation of test results. In the case of DACs (and I apologize if I am misstating their views) they take the position that all DACs sound the same and are only differentiated by how much distortion is produced by running test tones through them. Several reviewers I trust more have stated that a test tone bears little relationship to actually listening to music in real world conditions. (They recently began reviewing headphones and speakers; I think in those cases they actually listen to the product being reviewed.) They also take an almost ideological stance against tube amps because they produce a lot of distortion and generally do poorly in their tests. This is roughly true, but they refuse to accept some people like the sound that produces. What exacerbates all of this is that many adherents of the site (though not its founder, who seems like a reasonable guy even if I don't always agree with him) act like angry militant cultists on other audio forums like this one.

Edit: it should be noted that ASR has become very influential in the relatively small audiophile world. Until recently, Schiit products generally tested poorly in their reviews and were mercilessly thrashed in their forums. In an obvious reaction to ASR, Schiit began producing versions of some their amps with opamps that performed well in the ASR tests rather than entirely discrete designs, which violated their previously expressed design philosophy. With typical Schiit cheekiness, the first of these was called the Heresy. Clearly, they had felt a financial pinch.

 

[John Massaria]

I remember the diesel fuel cars like audi Mercedes and VW all getting caught rigging tests to make it look like they were emitting zero emissions when hooked up to certain machines- Audi and mb got little press while VW was caught a dragged along coals for the deceiving public and rigging machines - not saying ASR rigs anything but the company’s can make their gear apear stellar on paper and sound like schitt to our ears - test but verify with our ears is my motto always. ASR always states ur ears are “wrong” if the tests they do prove their are major flaws in engineering graphs- they also poo poo on analog LP records - so that should say it all

 

[silent-circuit]

I am a new member, so be gentle. What's wrong with ASR? The site seems pretty pedantic but there is value in that, no?

I apologize, it wasn't meant as a personal attack.

I just can't stand the "cult of personality" types in this hobby, of which there are many. The main ASR guy isn't that bad, if prone to tunnel vision (only cares about measurements to the detriment of all else, as others have already explained well enough I think), but his adherents are obnoxious. Zeos is kind of the opposite side of the coin, zero apparent technical knowledge, drooling over whatever the flavor of the week is, screaming "buy this before they raise the price" week after week... With affiliate links, of course.

They're far from all that's wrong with the hobby, but they're certainly part of it.

 

[sajunky]

In the case of DACs (and I apologize if I am misstating their views) they take the position that all DACs sound the same and are only differentiated by how much distortion is produced by running test tones through them. Several reviewers I trust more have stated that a test tone bears little relationship to actually listening to music in real world conditions.

Not at all. In fact all DAC's above ~100dB SINR sound the same when ground loops are dominant the system. As many ASR tests show a presence of ground loops in a test gear, it is no wonder why this statement is made.

It is not about bashing on another forum, I want to say that I made my purchasing decision based on ASR tests. It was Topping D30, my last Topping. The reviewed unit came with quality SiTime oscilators, while I received some Chinees no-name junk. Also the analog section seems is affected by using a fake opamps. This is my suspicion, otherwise it would be difficult to explain why it sounds so bad. Since D30 story, Amir do not do tear off tests, so people do not have a chance to compare photos of the producttion models with the reviewed (Topping supplied) sample.

 

[m-i-c-k-e-y]

As one member in this forum had said: "You cannot define Beauty with a tape measure"...

 

[John Massaria]

The usb on topping d90 has no ground issues as it does not use any usb power in plug effectively grounding it

 

[ZeusOdin]

ASR can provide some useful information. The problem many people (including myself) have with the site is that is that it doesn't merely make test results the most important factor in choosing audio gear but pretty much the only factor. Their "reviews" for DACs and amps pretty much consist only of a presentation of test results. In the case of DACs (and I apologize if I am misstating their views) they take the position that all DACs sound the same and are only differentiated by how much distortion is produced by running test tones through them. Several reviewers I trust more have stated that a test tone bears little relationship to actually listening to music in real world conditions. (They recently began reviewing headphones and speakers; I think in those cases they actually listen to the product being reviewed.) They also take an almost ideological stance against tube amps because they produce a lot of distortion and generally do poorly in their tests. This is roughly true, but they refuse to accept some people like the sound that produces. What exacerbates all of this is that many adherents of the site (though not its founder, who seems like a reasonable guy even if I don't always agree with him) act like angry militant cultists on other audio forums like this one.

Edit: it should be noted that ASR has become very influential in the relatively small audiophile world. Until recently, Schiit products generally tested poorly in their reviews and were mercilessly thrashed in their forums. In an obvious reaction to ASR, Schiit began producing versions of some their amps with opamps that performed well in the ASR tests rather than entirely discrete designs, which violated their previously expressed design philosophy. With typical Schiit cheekiness, the first of these was called the Heresy. Clearly, they had felt a financial pinch.

Well that's quite crazy. I have been hearing things of this sort recently about ASR. It appears to be true. I don't think you are misstating the views of many on ASR. However, if something tests perfectly but sounds awful, would you buy it? Of course not. I would say that this is unbelievable except that I know quite a few left-brained people: their left brain is left brained and their right brain is left brained as well. This is what happens when you are truly pedantic with no other considerations.

How can all DACs sounds the same? That is patently absurd. Now, what if you have 2 DACs that sound the same? I think that using really technical data and distortion information to make a choice. That seems logical to me. Data is just like any other tool use it wisely.

I was quite surprised to learn that both CDs and vinyl introduce distortions into the music. However, most humans generally prefer vinyl distortions. Call me crazy. The fact that ASR indirectly forced Schiit to change their designs is just insane but stranger things have happened. People (and companies) will do anything for money. Heresy. Ha! I love it.

I found head-fi.org by doing a search for Eximus DP1 and Mytek Brooklyn. Sure enough there was a HF (probably called fi here) user who had both DACs. His experience tipped me in favor of the DP1. Before my reaching out, I would have gone for the Brooklyn.

Thank you for your post. It quite illuminating. I will never look at ASR quite same.

 

[ZeusOdin]

I apologize, it wasn't meant as a personal attack.

I just can't stand the "cult of personality" types in this hobby, of which there are many. The main ASR guy isn't that bad, if prone to tunnel vision (only cares about measurements to the detriment of all else, as others have already explained well enough I think), but his adherents are obnoxious. Zeos is kind of the opposite side of the coin, zero apparent technical knowledge, drooling over whatever the flavor of the week is, screaming "buy this before they raise the price" week after week... With affiliate links, of course.

They're far from all that's wrong with the hobby, but they're certainly part of it.

Agreed. It was not a personal attack, and I did not perceive it as such.FYI, I hate anyone who screams. Screaming is antithetical to learning which is why we're here. I was already hearing grumblings about ASR and wanted clarity. This is extremely illuminating. Thank you.

 

[ZeusOdin]

Not at all. In fact all DAC's above ~100dB SINR sound the same when ground loops are dominant the system. As many ASR tests show a presence of ground loops in a test gear, it is no wonder why this statement is made.

It is not about bashing on another forum, I want to say that I made my purchasing decision based on ASR tests. It was Topping D30, my last Topping. The reviewed unit came with quality SiTime oscilators, while I received some Chinees no-name junk. Also the analog section seems is affected by using a fake opamps. This is my suspicion, otherwise it would be difficult to explain why it sounds so bad. Since D30 story, Amir do not do tear off tests, so people do not have a chance to compare photos of the producttion models with the reviewed (Topping supplied) sample.

Do you think ASR is getting paid for reviews? Why would a site like that eschew clarity. Are you say that a unit was reviewed by ASR with quality parts, you ordered based on ASR's review, and in the interim Topping changed components to cheap crap?!? Again, just because something tests well doesn't mean it will sound good. Interesting. I have learned quite a bit today.

 

[Marlowe]

The fact that ASR indirectly forced Schiit to change their designs is just insane but stranger things have happened. People (and companies) will do anything for money.

To clarify, Schiit didn't exactly "change" their designs. Notably with the Magni, their entry level headphone amp, they introduced two different versions. The current Magni 3+ continues the Schiit tradition of an entirely discrete design. The Magni Heresy, which has the same power rating, uses an op-amp design and measures much better on ASR's tests. Indeed, it appears pretty clear that the Heresy was designed primarily--if not solely--to placate ASR and its cultists, and I believe it was fairly successful in doing so. (There is now a newer third version, the slightly more expensive IEMagni. I'm really not familiar with it.)

 

[sajunky]

Do you think ASR is getting paid for reviews? Why would a site like that eschew clarity. Are you say that a unit was reviewed by ASR with quality parts, you ordered based on ASR's review, and in the interim Topping changed components to cheap crap?!? Again, just because something tests well doesn't mean it will sound good. Interesting. I have learned quite a bit today.

I don't say things I don't know for sure. Also it is impossible to visually identify fake opamps. Other changes like cheap capacitors in the power section, 20c Chineese no-name oscilators are documented in this thread. Such downgraded device will not measure the same as a demo unit with SiTime brand oscilators, it is why there were calls to re-test production unit, it didn't happen. Not to mention listening tests, our ears are more sensitive than any measuring device.

 

[viggen]

I just bought a DAC that measures horribly. Will receive it in a few days.

BTW, when I first got the D90, I loved it from the first time I clicked play. As time went on, I found the soundstage a bit narrow. I got Singxer SU2 between PC and DAC, and soundstage, air all increased. Last week, I repurposed a LPSU to power the Matrix H Element PCIE card replacing an ifi iPower. The D90 now doesn't need the SU2 and sounds marvelous.