Topping d90 vs d70s

[Honeypot]

A quick search on the forum didn't show any matches for this topic.

I am in the market for a new akm dac. And these two came to my mind.

Currently I am using a topping dx7-pro which has satisfied me ( and still do ) well enough for almost a year.

I would like to have an extra akm dac to pair with a flux fa-12 coming this next week or the follow one.

Depends on the results, i would sell the dx7-pro or pass it over to my wife.

What do you guys thing of this new device topping d70s, and how would it compare to d90. Also, expect d90s?

Thanks

 

[viggen]

I am interested in this too.

D90 has 208 XMOS USB chip. D90 MQA has 216 XMOS. D70s has 216 XMOS. Using USB input, I can hear a distinct difference between D90 vs D90 MQA. (However, I am using I2S input now so USB chip version for me is moot.)

I perused ASR really really quickly. I think I read D70s with dual AKM 4497 measured better than D90 with single 4499?

 

[Honeypot]

I am interested in this too.

D90 has 208 XMOS USB chip. D90 MQA has 216 XMOS. D70s has 216 XMOS. Using USB input, I can hear a distinct difference between D90 vs D90 MQA. (However, I am using I2S input now) so USB chip version for me is moot.)

I perused ASR really really quickly. I think I read D70s with dual AKM 4497 measured better than D90 with single 4499?

Yes, it did measured better.

 

[Poganin]

I'll be watching this topic with interest, because I'm in the same place, looking up upgrade from my Aune S6 to a stack, and since I need an output selector because I will be using two amps in that configuration, the two Topping DACs got my interest.

 

[sajunky]

Measurements can be helping finding out design faults, otherwise are useless. A difference between XU-208 and 216 is minimal. It can be a small inherent jitter in 208, but is very easy to avoid it, designers had a time to learn how to do it.

Why only Topping DACs on the list? There is Zen DAC and a very promising Bifrost 2, a nice multibit implementation. But a real jump to a natural sound is possible at a similar price to D90. It is Denafrips Ares II and Audio GD R-1. These are true R2R DACs with NOS option. Both with balanced ladders, R-1 has additionally I2S port.

I purchased Topping D30, it was one of the best measuring on ASR, but It sounds like a S$%^t. A Nobsound 8xTDA1387 DAC/HPA ($42) replaced Topping on my desk for one year. Now is Audio GD R2R-11 ($350). It is R2R DAC, comes with Amanero USB module and Class A headphone amplifier. It has a separate resistors ladder for decoding DSD, but more important is that quality of a CD playback is better than a software decoded MQA on DS DACs, go figure and try R2R. @Poganin, the are two Audio GD dealers in Poland, get a demo.

 

[Honeypot]

Measurements can be helping finding out design faults, otherwise are useless. A difference between XU-208 and 216 is minimal. It can be a small inherent jitter in 208, but is very easy to avoid it, designers had a time to learn how to do it.

Why only Topping DACs on the list? There is Zen DAC and a very promising Bifrost 2, a nice multibit implementation. But a real jump to a natural sound is possible at a similar price to D90. It is Denafrips Ares II and Audio GD R-1. These are true R2R DACs with NOS option. Both with balanced ladders, R-1 has additionally I2S port.

I purchased Topping D30, it was one of the best measuring on ASR, but It sounds like a S$%^t. A Nobsound 8xTDA1387 DAC/HPA ($42) replaced Topping on my desk for one year. Now is Audio GD R2R-11 ($350). It is R2R DAC, comes with Amanero USB module and Class A headphone amplifier. It has a separate resistors ladder for decoding DSD, but more important is that quality of a CD playback is better than a software decoded MQA on DS DACs, go figure and try R2R. @Poganin, the are two Audio GD dealers in Poland, get a demo.

Which zen dac? The one it's portable at 150€?
About the bifrost 2, i don't rly like schiit and I'm in the EU. No more taxes for me.
Both the Denafrips Ares II and Audio GD R-1 were unknown to me. They are a bit out of my price range, but will investigate them.

I am totally open to other than Topping products. But I am interested in how the two compete. And yes, i like topping from my experience.

 

[sajunky]

Which zen dac? The one it's portable at 150€?
About the bifrost 2, i don't rly like schiit and I'm in the EU. No more taxes for me.
Both the Denafrips Ares II and Audio GD R-1 were unknown to me. They are a bit out of my price range, but will investigate them.

Well, I can't afford R-1 too. A reason is that I own R2R-11 DAC/HPA ($350). A sound is so great, it create desire for something better and I know this, I had a reasonable good gear in the past. So I made plans for the same house of sound and next in line is R-28. Unfortunately in a meantime I started to love music again, so I am spending everything on music and a next purchase has to be delayed. I thought you could afford a more expensive one, for a Flux FA-12 it would be ideal a balanced R-1. This one in an Audio GD entry-level model, single-ended, without other high-end connectivity features, but is incredible value for money. It seems is going to be replaced with a new model, as price of a dealer in EU (EU 349 incl VAT) is lower than directly from China: [EDIT] Blinded. Exactly the same price in USD before VAT.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...e-ampli-dsd-32bit-384khz-amanero-p-12207.html

Headphone amplifier is not bad (paired with HD-600), but a value is in a DAC itself. You can't find a modern R2R DAC with a quality components like Amanero USB module, high-end type of I/V conversion and Class A non-feedback pre-amp for that price, there is no competition. If you find one tell us.

 

[Spareribs]

The Topping D70s appears to be very promising. I may consider getting it sometime this year.

 

[Honeypot]

I'm starting to consider other options...
After a lot of reviews, the denafrips ares II has got my attention.
Will see...

 

[Ipek]

I am bothered that there are so few reviews of the topping d70s. It measures fantastically well, and better than d90 in low frequencies.

 

[Honeypot]

It is also reported of being a bit short on soundstage....
I don't know, given the fast topping is getting out dacs, i would expect d90s in a few months.
Plus, rly wanting to try r2r dacs. Just for the sake of experience.

 

[Ipek]

It is also reported of being a bit short on soundstage....
I don't know, given the fast topping is getting out dacs, i would expect d90s in a few months.
Plus, rly wanting to try r2r dacs. Just for the sake of experience.

Ooh, where did you hear this? The extremely few user comments I have seen say the exact opposite, that this is one of the largest soundstages they have heard in a dac. Can you show me where you read that? I am trying to find as much info as I can from actual users.

 

[viggen]

i would be one of the users who claims D90 has narrow soundstage but it does everything else so well. once adding a singxer su2 the soundstage issue disappears and everything else improves as well.

 

[]eep]

Please, if you consider yourself a music lover consider this:
- music is about turning sound into emotion.
Specifications are marketing tools (after demanding 'good specs' from the engineering department) used for hypnotizing (/mesmerizing/brainwashing) the prospective buyer so
- marketing is about turning promises into money.

If you let that sink in it is all the more important to leave specs for what they are. Skip them like ads on youtube as fast as you can and try to get listening experience first hand. And if that isn't viable try to get 2nd-hand experience from people who know how to listen and describe that in words. Users, reviewers, audiophiles (dangerous word, not to be confused with fanboys). Preferably honest people or you end up in another setup of that same marketing department.

There are more manufacturers than Topping. I've had some Topping products in the past and they have progressed from half decent cheap entry products following white papers to nice looking and good sounding products. But I get the distinct impression that they are still trying to cut corners and not doing their homework. I don't see them as audiophiles doing their best to engineer super sounding products but more like engineers trying to do audiophile.

I have modified quite a few dacs in the last 10 years and I found that while delta sigma dacs have progressed greatly over the last decades the old ladder dacs, non oversampling, still sound better. It's all in the implementation. Especially the output stage. And of course input and power supply. But especially the output stage that has to work particularly hard to iron out the mess of the inherent d/s hf-noise and amplify the voltage to the needed level.
R2R /ladder dacs have it easy in the output, (I found) filtering to be mainly to please marketing but for music steep filtering just gets in the way. It destroys phase coherence which messes up soundstage and ambiance cues. Nothing worse and unnatural than pre-echo. And voltage is already up there, no amplification needed really. Just buffering for impedance if you want. I don't like buffering because i dislike complicating the signal path. Anything extra always takes something away from the pure signal (information can only be lost, never created).

I have recently upgraded my R2R dac to the Denafrips Ares II, relocated my modded Teradak and sold my ESS9038q2m. I do have a 9038pro in my SMSL DP5 that i can use for comparison. I still consider the uber wide soundstage, detail and sparkle on top are artificial. At first, coming from D/S you think you are missing a lot, but when you really listen you start to notice you can actually hear more. You can point out shapes, not just general direction but the outline of a singer or instrument, the size of the recording venue, distance, timbre etc.

In short; try look at Loxije, SMSL etc, but better than another d/s is a proper R2R. And forget about 'measurements'.

 

[]eep]

i know this won't help you decide for anything because I'm not selling mine. But I did another compare side by side, i can switch with a remote now, of 3 different dacs in difderent price ranges. The Denafrips Ares r2r and the dual es9038pro in my SMSL DP5 (comparable to the SU9?), both measure well, the 9038pro probably 'perfect' and my old 4 x Philips TDA1543, NOS and tweaked filter that I'm not afraid to say measures like s#it. I know it does because I can hear with sweeps, mirror images and tones going the other way etc. And what I did to the output can be called 'illegal'.

So I took and old reference recording I use to test a dac, Sakamoto & Morelenbaum² - Casa with A praya deserta, the first song. Just a small studio with birds and noises in the background, piano, cello and female singer. If the output is right you can hear the pianoloop clear and loud. If not it will distort. Also the singer will sound shrill. With a good dac you can hear the size of the room, size of the piano, placement of the cello. (also a good test for speaker placement). And of course timbre of the cello.

So what did i hear?... I didnt expect this but both the Ares and the DP5 distorted and made me cringe. I knew this would hapoen for the 9038pro but i didnt expect the Ares to do that. And my own tweaked 1543 flew by just relaxed and natural as if to say 'when does the test begin?' I had the levels of the TDA1543 and DP5 leveled, the Ares was louder (can't adjust that) so i tried again at lower level but same result.. Also details and soundstage the unfiltered 4x1543 was the clear winner; clear details, fresh, see through, soundstage a little further back . Second came the Ares, a bit courser but creamy, darker, like covered in chocolate. Last the 9038pro with a wide stage, closer forward, less acoustic cues, birds were shut off, everything was a bit sparkly like covered in shimmering sand.

Conclusion:
1 soundquality was inverse to measurement levels (DP5 sounded worst but measured best, 1543 other way around)
2 sound was not really dependant on price but rather dependant on inverse of (quality x number of parts) ie the shortest path sounded best. There's no better cap than no cap is my motto. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. KISS. Etc.
3 bending the rules can bring you a straighter path to the truth.
4 confirmation bias only goes so far (dang, the Ares was a lot of money for me)
5 make you own conclusion, think for yourself