[kopczas]

WaveTheory compared the A90D to various sub $600 amps

I`ve seen this vid.
I do have both amps at this moment, I just wanted to compare my thoughts with others

With all due respect, I disagree with his interpretation of having a clean measurement equates to lack of 'micro details'.

WaveTheory tried to justify his subjective opinions with some science-y concepts

I guess it`s the thing with audiophilia as brain destroying syndrom. I could not go thru with WaveTheory video.
It was interesting to watch until this guy said he has some degree in physics, after that it became sad.
He failed to prove anything except lack of basic knowledge . This video could last 30s : "A90D better then A90. I don`t like it" .
In my opinion he would not like any equipment that represents neutrality cause many times audiophiles search in recorded music things that aren`t there. Paradox is that every recording and mastering studio uses equipment design for this purpose, which ironically audiophiles hate to listen to cause it`s boring lol.
As you said, A90D is closer to RME ADi2 and RME is studio workhorse.

So it`s designers choice if final product will be neutral, more exiting then neutral, or every other direction. It`s not magic or rocket science.
It`s also buyers choice, I personally prefer that any part of audio path was as low in interference of any kind until signal reach speaker or HP driver. So any extra excitement, or extra bass boost from equipment is engineering fail for me. Some may like this.
But making some crazy theory why A90D measures great but sounds not so much is funny, cause measurement prove that A90D doesn`t sound. Overall distortion is -30db below human hearing, there are on 2nd and 3rd harmonics to interfere, there is plenty of power to drive basically anything on the market.

 

[DeckHiFi]

I`ve seen this vid.
I do have both amps at this moment, I just wanted to compare my thoughts with others



I guess it`s the thing with audiophilia as brain destroying syndrom. I could not go thru with WaveTheory video.
It was interesting to watch until this guy said he has some degree in physics, after that it became sad.
He failed to prove anything except lack of basic knowledge . This video could last 30s : "A90D better then A90. I don`t like it" .
In my opinion he would not like any equipment that represents neutrality cause many times audiophiles search in recorded music things that aren`t there. Paradox is that every recording and mastering studio uses equipment design for this purpose, which ironically audiophiles hate to listen to cause it`s boring lol.
As you said, A90D is closer to RME ADi2 and RME is studio workhorse.

So it`s designers choice if final product will be neutral, more exiting then neutral, or every other direction. It`s not magic or rocket science.
It`s also buyers choice, I personally prefer that any part of audio path was as low in interference of any kind until signal reach speaker or HP driver. So any extra excitement, or extra bass boost from equipment is engineering fail for me. Some may like this.
But making some crazy theory why A90D measures great but sounds not so much is funny, cause measurement prove that A90D doesn`t sound. Overall distortion is -30db below human hearing, there are on 2nd and 3rd harmonics to interfere, there is plenty of power to drive basically anything on the market.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I would also like to add - I think the subjective crowd act like things are there in the music that can only be found with this amp or this amp over here. Which is funny, the goal of an amp if you want a clean, transparent sound is to give you the recording in the most dynamic, least distorted way possible (if you like low distortion sound). Now you can always prefer distortion or an amp that changes the music. You're allowed to, but acting like it's objectively better is silly. To get closest to some kind of standard - we need to have things we all agree on. Which is the frequency response of headphones lately. So the things that are going to affect that the most?
- Your headphones
- The EQ you're using.
- And do you have the power to get a dynamic sound out of your headphones at the right volume?

Everything else seems incredibly subjective with amps and dacs. I think what is confusing about the whole debate is people don't break it down correctly...

Objective: trying to get as close to reference studio master as possible while looking at things we can measure. It's OK if something sounds better, but did you do blind tests to make sure it actually does?
This philosophy does NOT mean preference towards boring sound. The goal is to have an incredibly dynamic sound if you have the frequency response / EQ getting you there.

Subjective: Preferring one type of sound over another. This does NOT mean it's finding something in the recording that wasn't there on a "boring objective device". That's only true if you didn't do the objective part correctly above. This CAN mean things sound different from one another. Of course filters and distortions can change the sound. Doesn't mean it's finding the magic or the transparency, or timbre that was there originally (and this device FOUND IT!)

 

[borkenarrou]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I would also like to add - I think the subjective crowd act like things are there in the music that can only be found with this amp or this amp over here. Which is funny, the goal of an amp if you want a clean, transparent sound is to give you the recording in the most dynamic, least distorted way possible (if you like low distortion sound). Now you can always prefer distortion or an amp that changes the music. You're allowed to, but acting like it's objectively better is silly. To get closest to some kind of standard - we need to have things we all agree on. Which is the frequency response of headphones lately. So the things that are going to affect that the most?
- Your headphones
- The EQ you're using.
- And do you have the power to get a dynamic sound out of your headphones at the right volume?

Everything else seems incredibly subjective with amps and dacs. I think what is confusing about the whole debate is people don't break it down correctly...

Objective: trying to get as close to reference studio master as possible while looking at things we can measure. It's OK if something sounds better, but did you do blind tests to make sure it actually does?
This philosophy does NOT mean preference towards boring sound. The goal is to have an incredibly dynamic sound if you have the frequency response / EQ getting you there.

Subjective: Preferring one type of sound over another. This does NOT mean it's finding something in the recording that wasn't there on a "boring objective device". That's only true if you didn't do the objective part correctly above. This CAN mean things sound different from one another. Of course filters and distortions can change the sound. Doesn't mean it's finding the magic or the transparency, or timbre that was there originally (and this device FOUND IT!)

Agreed, I think distortion is neither good nor bad, it is just a preference thing, like tube amplifier, however my motivation for referring the video is possible loss of micro details, are feedback based design amplifiers (like A90D) so aggresive in cleaning the audio signal they end up removing the minutest of the details which were there in the original recording which positively contributed in some way to the music, I myself don't have a way to know if this is infact the case which is why I asked the wise folks here.

 

[Arniesb]

Agreed, I think distortion is neither good nor bad, it is just a preference thing, like tube amplifier, however my motivation for referring the video is possible loss of micro details, are feedback based design amplifiers (like A90D) so aggresive in cleaning the audio signal they end up removing the minutest of the details which were there in the original recording which positively contributed in some way to the music, I myself don't have a way to know if this is infact the case which is why I asked the wise folks here.

Some people like copper cable over Silver cables. Does that makes Silver cables worse? No, its just preference for more coloration.
Headamp gsx mk2 was aimed at maximum transparency and was hated by a lot of people even though it is fully class a amp! Gsx mini is less capable, but like by more people than gsx mk2 not because its better, but because it is tuned to be warmer.

 

[DeckHiFi]

Agreed, I think distortion is neither good nor bad, it is just a preference thing, like tube amplifier, however my motivation for referring the video is possible loss of micro details, are feedback based design amplifiers (like A90D) so aggresive in cleaning the audio signal they end up removing the minutest of the details which were there in the original recording which positively contributed in some way to the music, I myself don't have a way to know if this is infact the case which is why I asked the wise folks here.

Well it's the perfect subjective conspiracy - but not sure if anyone can prove it. This amplifier makes you lose some details in the music!! That would be of course terrible if true. I would hope that kind of thing could be measured where you would have 2 devices against each other and show if any details are being missed on any tones/frequencies. But again, it's just amusing because that would completely change my whole argument if true and basically throw the whole objective thing on it's head if certain devices are losing details in an optimal setup, but they measure perfectly. Again, the perfect conspiracy - but I would like someone to prove it.

 

[ericx85]

I can -sorta- see how feedback amps can be aggressive enough to the point that it is its own form of coloration I guess. But I think Wavetheory should give the A90D its credit for the features it has at its price at least. Tons of power, a remote, balanced/unbalanced inputs and outputs, ground kill switch, and best of all the r2r volume. Unless you can listen to a dac on your headphones direct from its outputs (and I dont mean a built in amp), you can't really say if the A90D is killing anything or not.

 

[kopczas]

I think the subjective crowd act like things are there in the music that can only be found with this amp or this amp over here.

I`ve heard that statement so many time during equipment reviews, vintage lovers, diyers...

- Your headphones
- The EQ you're using.
- And do you have the power to get a dynamic sound out of your headphones at the right volume?

EQ complicates building any reference
Another thing is that I`ve seen different measurements results from same HPs done by different people, so measurement method should always be stated.

This philosophy does NOT mean preference towards boring sound. The goal is to have an incredibly dynamic sound if you have the frequency response / EQ getting you there.

How mamy times did you heard from audiophile that studio speakers are impossible to listen to?

Subjective: Preferring one type of sound over another.

This is the point where any discussion could end : I prefer that over this. Period. I should just add some input what I prefer.

 

[kopczas]

thing could be measured where you would have 2 devices against each other and show if any details are being missed on any tones/frequencies.

Measurements vs subjective listening has one factor that changes everything: trust in your brain which in this case is tricky. Imagine graphs of two measured devices which show that both sound the same. Then you think: it`s impossible!! here your brain tricks you cause you know what you hear, your eyes see two different devices so even if they are close (or not) they MUST sound different.
Would you trust your ears or measurements?
Now let`s add another factor: device 1 is 4000$, device 2 is 400$. At this point your brain is overload state. Now you definitely hear the more expensive device sounds better.
This trickery goes until you would be brave enough to take ABx test.

 

[inscythe]

Agreed, I think distortion is neither good nor bad, it is just a preference thing, like tube amplifier, however my motivation for referring the video is possible loss of micro details, are feedback based design amplifiers (like A90D) so aggresive in cleaning the audio signal they end up removing the minutest of the details which were there in the original recording which positively contributed in some way to the music, I myself don't have a way to know if this is infact the case which is why I asked the wise folks here.

That's the issue with trying to define "micro details" in this situation. How can you determine whether these micro details are in the original recording or artifacts introduced by distortion in the amplifier. And that's why a reference point needs to be set somehow, and that's usually a studio reference.

Again, like others have mentioned in this thread, Topping's sound target is basically studio reference, even though they are still classified as consumer product as they don't have the same features as pro devices and didn't go through the necessary pro certification processes (probably why they can keep the price comparatively cheaper than RME products).

To reiterate again, not all distortions are bad. Sound engineers from companies like Schiit and Chord intentionally add some distortions to make the sound better to their ears, and Amir from ASR would then bash their products measurements. Going to ASR's extreme would be stupid as well in my opinion.

So, people like WaveTheory can call these "micro details" or "musicality" or "euphonic" all day, but it doesn't change the fact that they are just nice-sounding distortions that are not in the studio reference. Whether you find that good or bad is something extremely subjective.

 

[inscythe]

Currawong has posted his review of A90D. I think that's a fair and balanced review.

 

[Revelation Sound]

Currawong has posted his review of A90D. I think that's a fair and balanced review.

Finally, a review that tells it as it is. When Josh who I respect just says this is the best headphone amp, I go excited as I have a certain trust factor in his comments. However when you see the inside of this unit and you get to see the power supplies, and filters, you get to understand how the latest technology works. I agree in its price range, it probably one of the best headphone amps made. But when you compare it to a higher end headphone amp, there are differences and amps with higher end components don't have some of the cons of this type of design. Granted a lot depends on how deep your wallet is and if you think it is worth paying double or quadruple the price of other higher end headphone amps. The McIntosh MHA 200 tube amp is high on my list, and they give a 30-day money back if I am not blown away by it. TheA900D is another consideration. Both should provide an improved sound over my headphone output on my NAD preamp,

 

[ezduzit2500]

WaveTheory compared the A90D to various sub $600 amps



To sum it up he is not too impressed, his main complaints are lack of micro details particularly trailing ones and details in busy passages which he atttibute to A90D's feedback topology (like other THX based amps), I myself dont have higher end amps to compare to know if I am missing anything, so folks who do have high end amps do you agree with his observations.

I'm a sucker for discrete amps - but you can't just throw in a bunch of well-measuring mini-components on a PCB, put in a housing, and call it good via the measurements (did Topping do that?). The listening and comparing phases must be done after the measuring. Schiit has succeeded in a "less is more" type of way, IMO, ie: Putting as few overall components on their PCBs as possible to acheive their SQ goals. Right now I have about 3 discrete amps that each have slightly different presentations - but none sound like the A90D is described......

he atttibute to A90D's feedback topology

The power supply and power supply capacitors have entered the chat......

 

[Arniesb]

"he atttibute to A90D's feedback topology"
Just hard ignore these type of comments cause such people have a wild imagination.
Power supply can be legit criticism, cause People heard big improvements with ferrum hypsos when using ferrum oor and many more examples.

 

[ezduzit2500]

"he atttibute to A90D's feedback topology"
Just hard ignore these type of comments cause such people have a wild imagination.
Power supply can be legit criticism, cause People heard big improvements with ferrum hypsos when using ferrum oor and many more examples.

I would argue that a beefy linear power supply transformer(s), well above-average supply filtering/capacitance, and beefy, biased deep into Class A output stages (even if a Class AB amp) are THE defining factors in any amps' suitability for the widest range of HPs. IMO, of course.....

 

[borkenarrou]

"he atttibute to A90D's feedback topology"
Just hard ignore these type of comments cause such people have a wild imagination.
Power supply can be legit criticism, cause People heard big improvements with ferrum hypsos when using ferrum oor and many more examples.

Correction, I am only quoting Wavetheory on this.