Tools for Analyzing the Quality of Mastering
Mar 26, 2018 at 1:33 PM Post #196 of 209
(...) For example, we may look at a (so called) "brickwalled" or "flat topped" product and hear clipping distortion and conclude that obviously clipping is occurring but, it may only look clipped, rather than actually be clipped and the distortion heard maybe occurring in the playback chain (DAC, speakers or headphones for example).
???

The answer to your question is simple: Because a series of Compressors/Limiters have been applied.
Yes. Slightly contradicts your previous statements about compression and limiting...

3. (...)You've equated "flat tops" with clipping, used incorrect terminology, potentially applied mis-attribution and provided an incomplete list of answers/further questions.
Let me know how you call the flat tops of the examples I've shown if you think "clipping" was incorrect terminology.
Amend the list if you think there is something missing. I didn't claim to give a complete list.

BTW, @Zapp_Fan previous post is well worth reading (and understanding)!
Yes, it is, for you as well.

2. Why are non-linear odd harmonics "disadvantageous to listening"? That's just another "black and white" absolute statement which is untrue ... or more precisely, it's true under certain circumstances and the exact opposite is true under others. This has been your problem throughout and yet again, if you were to actually apply your statement then almost all pop/rock of the last 50 years or so would not exist.
Here we go again. In effect you are trying to play the loudness war down by mashing up everything.

3. You can say whatever you like but then I can say that you're talking nonsense. The vast majority of "flat tops" do NOT "come from clipping in the mastering" (or any other stage) and if there is actual clipping, then it could come from any stage, either before, during or after mastering.
If a "flat top" (however you may define it) doesn't come from any stage, where does it come from then?
And how can it come from after mastering?
 
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Mar 26, 2018 at 2:21 PM Post #197 of 209
[1] Yes. Slightly contradicts your previous statements about compression and limiting...
[2] Let me know how you call the flat tops of the examples I've shown if you think "clipping" was incorrect terminology.
[3] Yes, it is, for you as well.
[4] Here we go again. In effect you are trying to play the loudness war down by mashing up everything.
[5] If a "flat top" (however you may define it) doesn't come from any stage, where does it come from then? And how can it come from after mastering?

1. How?
2. I've no idea if it was the incorrect terminology for the "flat tops" on your examples, it certainly is if you're applying it to "practically all rock/pop and most jazz records"!
3. Why for me as well, I've known that for years already?
4. Exactly here we go again, more nonsense! I was NOT playing down the loudness war, just correcting an incorrect/nonsense statement!
5. Why don't you just make-up or assume an answer?

G
 
Mar 26, 2018 at 3:01 PM Post #198 of 209
1. How?
2. I've no idea if it was the incorrect terminology for the "flat tops" on your examples, it certainly is if you're applying it to "practically all rock/pop and most jazz records"!
3. Why for me as well, I've known that for years already?
4. Exactly here we go again, more nonsense! I was NOT playing down the loudness war, just correcting an incorrect/nonsense statement!
5. Why don't you just make-up or assume an answer?

G
1. E.g.:
Why do you think it's called a "brickwall limiter"? It's called a "brickwall limiter" because it compresses to an absolute (brickwall) limit, defined by the user. If the engineer defines a limit of say -0.1dBFS then there will be zero samples above -0.1dBFS and there is no possibility of clipping (except in the case of inter-sample peaks as mentioned by pinnahertz).

2.
Give me some examples of common contemporary rock/pop albums without any clippings.

3.
What about this one:
Anyway, I guess my point is, the limiters and compressors are not the source of our troubles, it's the engineers putting in too much gain before / after the limiter. I guess this illustrates that the problem is purely social / economic and not technical in nature. The tools are perfectly fine, it's the people using them that are our concern.

4.
Maybe you simply want to justify the results of contemporary sound engineering? Or what is your aim in this debate then?

5.
Previously you didn't want me to assume any answers... In this case, my assumed answer could be that you gave a vacuous nonsense-answer in order to mash up everything...
 
Mar 26, 2018 at 3:46 PM Post #199 of 209
1. E.g.:
2. Give me some examples of common contemporary rock/pop albums without any clippings.
3. What about this one:
4. Maybe you simply want to justify the results of contemporary sound engineering?
5. Previously you didn't want me to assume any answers...

1. I asked you "how", your response does not answer the question.
2. Most of them.
3. What about that one, did you even read the first sentence of what you quoted?
4. More incorrect assumption, while ignoring the actual facts. Why are you so determined to act the stereotypical audiophile?
5. Me not wanting you to assume incorrect answers doesn't appear to have deterred you in the slightest, as evidenced by your very last answer! If I thought you had any interest in the real answer, I'd give it to you but clearly you don't and I'm bored providing you with them.

G
 
Mar 26, 2018 at 3:59 PM Post #200 of 209
@gregorio:
Any further discussion with you seems to be a complete waste of time, as you are unwilling or unable to clearly answer my questions or to contribute with examples, but prefer to provoke and mash up.
 
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Mar 26, 2018 at 4:13 PM Post #201 of 209
When I think the whole world has gone crazy, I stop and consider whether the world might be sane and I'm the crazy one.
 
Mar 26, 2018 at 4:43 PM Post #202 of 209
Any further discussion with you seems to be a complete waste of time, as you are unwilling or unable to clearly answer my questions or to contribute with examples, but prefer to provoke and mash up.

Any further discussion is a waste of time. I've given you pages of answers which you've ignored or misrepresented, I've given you an example of a contemporary, "flat topped" master which is NOT clipped. I've asked you questions and you've never answered. You are blaming me for not providing clear answers, which is completely missing the whole point and my argument, that there are no "clear answers" because it is not the simple "black and white", absolute issue you're clearly so clearly wedded to. I am clearly wasting my time and you're not going to change or question your position, which is your choice but if you continue to make nonsense statements of facts (like the odd harmonics statement) then I'm going to continue to call you out on that nonsense!

G
 
Mar 26, 2018 at 6:03 PM Post #203 of 209
When I think the whole world has gone crazy, I stop and consider whether the world might be sane and I'm the crazy one.
Unfortunately it's the world that has gone crazy, not you. :fearful:
 
Mar 26, 2018 at 6:09 PM Post #204 of 209
Maybe we should just smile and nod and pet him on the head and give him a nice generic validation for his misconceptions. He might be happier that way.
 
Mar 26, 2018 at 9:21 PM Post #206 of 209
if the point was to say "loudness war is bad" and "I wish for world peace" then wave my hand like miss Universe, I believe anybody can do it. although it's nice, it doesn't do anything.
any argument against compression in general or some abstract idea of "too much compression", is wrong. the artist is god and does whatever the F he wants. the mixing and mastering guys are most certainly artists too. if we don't like it or don't understand why, that's our problem, not the track's.

now one aspect I recognize as an issue, is when the original album was one way, and each new remastered version of the album becomes more and more compressed. then obviously I agree that it's bad in general. not bad that other masters exist with more compression, because I'm actually one to sometimes prefer those(quiet listening habits). but if it means losing access to the old version, then I join everybody else to say it's wrong. art needs to be preserved and original content should still be available to all. but getting mad at loudness war for that, is it even the right fight? I suspect that most of the time when a version is replaced by another it's mainly done to renew/renegotiate rights, or some other money stuff completely unrelated to music or what the artist wants. the issue isn't what else is created, and how some dude thinks it's wrong, but why we can't find the old versions. or why a clearly different version is not properly identified so we can always know from the cover which master done where by whom in year XXXX?
of course the answer to those question usually has zero relation to music, and good luck making the industry do something that isn't money oriented.

in any case, the loudness war for the sake of having a track louder in people's car when played on the radio, that's a thing of the past now. most broadcast services in many countries have adopted one or another standard that's more or less replaygain with more rules, which reverse the benefits of massive loudness normalization(feeling louder). in France it's been several years and the issue has even been dealt with when it comes to ads. we no longer have those suckers sounding twice as loud as the show we were just watching. so what's done is done, but if modern stuff are crushed against 0dB, the cause is probably different. one of those may be incompetence, as nowadays anybody can install a DAW on his computer and pretend like he can do pro stuff for cheap. another might just be that despite what we bourgeois audiophiles like to think, maybe the average Joe actually likes a good deal of normalization in a track. this is a service industry after all. a shameless and dysfunctional one, but still very much service oriented. if something was hated by everybody and didn't let them make more money, would they keep doing it?
 
Mar 27, 2018 at 4:13 AM Post #207 of 209
If the issue was a simple "black and white" one, the solution would be a simple "black and white" one and us engineers wouldn't have needed to fight the loudness war for more than 25 years.

I suspect that most of the time when a version is replaced by another it's mainly done to renew/renegotiate rights, or some other money stuff completely unrelated to music or what the artist wants.

It's virtually always "some other money stuff" rather than anything directly to do with rights. Record labels have seen falling revenues for nearly two decades and with barely a handful of exceptions there's no longer vast fortunes to be made from investing in making and distributing records. If the worth of the big multi-national record label corporations were still based on the "talent" under contract and revenue from new record releases, then they would ALL have collapsed and ceased to exist by now. However, they haven't collapsed, they still have market values in the billions and that's significantly based on the valuation of the back catalogues they own. In fact, most of the big label mergers/buy outs in the last 15 or so years have had nothing to do with the "talent" under contract or the skills/abilities or infrastructure of the labels being bought but everything to do with getting their hands on back catalogues. Those labels without significant back catalogues have been bought for peanuts or simply vanished entirely. Despite the appearance of the big labels, that they're still doing what they've always done (discovering and funding/nurturing new talent), what they really are, in significant part today, is dedicated to leveraging the value of their back catalogues. It's got nothing to do with what artists want and even nothing to do with music itself but everything to do with corporate/conglomerate survival and share holder belief in the value of back catalogues. In other words, there was a time when what you, audiophiles and the public wanted created a valuable market which the record companies existed to service but consumers now pay hundredths of a cent to stream a track rather than $15 to buy a CD. So, this market's value is worth a fraction of what it used to be worth and therefore, what you and the public wants is also worth a fraction of what is used to be worth!

in France it's been several years and the issue has even been dealt with when it comes to ads. we no longer have those suckers sounding twice as loud as the show we were just watching.

Unfortunately, the situation with loud TV commercials might appear to be the same as with the music loudness war but in several respects it's significantly different. Firstly, in most developed countries TV already had the infrastructure in place. The main broadcasters already had strict specifications and ingest/quality control departments to ensure those specs were met. When loudness normalisation came along, it was just a case of the broadcasters' QC departments changing to loudness normalisation specs from the previous peak based specs (or quasi-peak specs, to be more technically precise). Music broadcast though never had any technical specifications (with the exception of track duration) and has no QC infrastructure beyond what the DJ decided he/she liked. Secondly, there still isn't a specification for music, there are lots of different specifications. Youtube for example normalises to about 13LUFS, iTunes to about 16.5LUFS, CD and many music radio stations still have no loudness specifications, etc. In contrast, the TV broadcast world effectively has just two different specs and they are so similar as to not make any real difference: -24LUFS in North America, Australia and some other countries and -23LUFS in the EU and some other countries but as both allow +/- 1LUFS, you can make one mix which complies with both specs. Lastly, TV is more grounded in reality and is far less abstract than music. A car engine has to sound like a real car engine, the fizz of a sparkling beverage being opened has to sound like a real beverage being opened. Whereas a drumkit can sound like anything and in modern genres sounds absolutely nothing like a real drumkit! Music genres have evolved, from the composition and fundamental sound palette up, for the application of extreme compression.

Bob Katz's declaration several years ago that the loudness war was over, was premature because of the points above. Mastering engineers are and will still be asked to master to the loudest specs, which currently are effectively CD and/or Youtube. And, the last problem I mentioned ties back in to my previous paragraph. Those music genres which have evolved for the extreme application of compression need to evolve again, away from the extreme application of compression. Such an evolution takes time and in the past, popular music genre evolution was largely driven by someone (or group) coming out with something new/different, making a stack of cash and then others jumping on that band wagon and maybe developing the idea even further, driven by the prospect of also making a stack of cash (or hopefully an even bigger stack of cash). But, such stacks of cash no longer really exist and are therefore a decreasing incentive for genre evolution. So what is the incentive, millions of social media followers and/or Youtube views? Is that enough incentive to create real genre evolution or only enough to fragment what market there is? Who knows, but the end of the loudness war is not imminent.

G
 
Mar 27, 2018 at 5:38 AM Post #208 of 209
Would be interesting to know where the money has gone? On what do people spend their hard earned money these days? Games? Smartphones?
 
Mar 27, 2018 at 9:40 AM Post #209 of 209
Was -24 chosen to allow for movie content? It always sounds like overkill to me for a sitcom.
 

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