[midoo1990]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrift /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't get it, and maybe I'm misunderstanding you and some others in this thread, but are you saying that you think an underpowered headphone sounds as good as one that's sufficiently powered? Taking the HD650s as a point of reference, they sound like crap coming out of my headphone out of my pc or laptop. They don't sound much better coming out of my portable iBasso D10, but they sound decent coming out of my LD MKIII. And by "crap" I mean that they may sound technically okay out of a headphone out (if you can get past the clipping), but since I can barely hear the music coming out of them unamplified it seems sort of pointless to even have them if someone is planning on keeping them unamped. My Grado SR60i's beat the pants off of the HD650s unamped and so do my buddy's PX100s. I don't have any technical measurements, and I haven't really been in this hobby for very long, but this all seems like common sense to me.

No,I don't say that my k701 sound the same from my iPod as amped,but I say it keep me tapping my foot and keep me smiling.the amp ofcourse make it better in everyway but it is pleasurable enough if I have to give up my amp.

 

[TStewart422]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ignorance is bliss is one thing. Ignorance as arrogance is quite another.

Funny. I see you guys in the same way. Except I don't see you guys as a cologne carried around by Rick Martel (kudos to whoever gets the reference).

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStewart422 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Show me some measurements of how an amplified headphone sounds as opposed to an "unamplified" headphone and I may give these arguments more credence. That and that three-initialed banned topic would be enough to convince me otherwise. Until then, my rig is just as good as the rest of your's... it's just ugly as sin and takes up more space on my desk than I would ideally like.

I understand the desire for measurements. It's nice to be able to quantify this stuff. I don't have what you seek, but data is always welcome. As for the rest of your argument, if you believe your rig is as good as anything else out there, I certainly have no problem with that. However, one question I have is are you relying on measurements as a proxy for listening to other rigs, or have you actually had the chance to listen to "higher-end" rigs and found no difference in SQ compared to your own setup?

 

[scompton]

I've never heard the Presonus HP4. I have heard the Central Station which sounded very good. I have the EMU 0404 USB and it has a pretty decent headphone amp built in. Clipping should not be an issue with it and the HD650. It doesn't clip with my orthos or 600 ohm AKGs.

But I'm curious TStewart422, have you done the measurements and tests that you're demanding of others, or are you being just as arrogant as your accusing others of being?

At a recent meet, I listened to the HD800 from 2 systems. The first I listened to was out of an Apache with a Marantz CD player as source and I thought it sounded mediocre. I'd rather listen to my YH-100 out of the EMU 0404.

The second rig was TTVJ Millet amp with a Meridan CD play as source. That sounded incredible. It blows away rig in every way imaginable. The only way my rig is better is when listening to bad recordings because it's too revealing. The new Norah Jones album was unlistenable with that rig, but is listenable with mine.

This wasn't a blind test, but my bias when listening to the second system was that I wouldn't be impressed because of the listen with the first system.

Blind testing of amps is not a trivial process because of the problem of level matching.

 

[adrift]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStewart422 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Clipping can be measured. If you're using such an underpowered source that clips while playing at a reasonable volume, then you've got a REALLY crappy source! But, amplifying something like the HD650s to a reasonable volume (I rarely maximize up the volume; I like my hearing) isn't all that hard. Is it better than my computer rig? No. I can hear the hard-drive spinning between songs. Other than that, I could totally get by with an iPod and a HD650. Of course, the Grados are beyond good with the iPod, but no one questions that. I've said it before and I'll say it again. All low-impedance, low-distortion, non-clipping, well-put-together SS amps sound the same. Period. There are no measurements that say otherwise and the three-initialed-banned-topic has proven this time and time again. Call me a fool. Call me tin-eared. But, at least I'm a tin-eared fool who hasn't thrown away thousands of dollars on equipment when all I wanted was a great-sounding pair of headphones. Flame away, friends!

No flame. I'm not coming down on anyone because they enjoy their 650s out of an iphone out. I guess personally, I couldn't do it. Perhaps its purely subjective, but I just couldn't listen to 650s out of an iphone out and be complacent. It would bug me knowing that this is not how these headphones are supposed to sound and knowing that my much cheaper SR60i's actually sound better out of the same out.

As for clipping, it doesn't seem to me to be that hard to clip the 650s even using the D10 with a macbook or a PC as a source (and I don't rip music under 256 kbps), but then... I do enjoy listening to music loud... not ear bleeding or anything, but loud.

 

[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvrboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, I have that mentality. Just my personal feelings, if I owned a HD800 without a high end source and amp I would feel very silly. I'm not saying that others should feel silly, but that's how I would feel. The HD800 was designed to be just one part of a system. That's what high end audio is, a system. Not just plug and play. I think we have this mentality in our society that anyone can just buy their way into a culture or hobby without learning anything. Just buy one thing and bam, you are an instant "audiophile." Lots of people buy Ducatis and Harley Davidsons and want to be part of the sport bike / cruiser culture without even knowing a single thing about the history of the bikes, racing pedigree, or how the engines work. They just think once they spend the cash they will be "in" with the cool kids.

First off, let me begin by saying that we are at two completely different places in life. I am long past the age and days where I worried what or how people thought about me. Feeling "silly" over a headphone purchase is just a foreign concept to me.

Second, it comes across really arrogant when you try to imply that you know exactly what Sennheiser and its designers had in mind when creating the HD800. That's fine and dandy if in your opinion the HD800 was designed to be "one part of a system", and high end audio is "supposed to be a system", but please don't try to portray your opinion as fact. If this was the case with the HD800, and the designers saw eye to eye with your perspective, then riddle me this, why exactly are they displaying the HD800 at various trade shows around the country with a Lehmann Black Cube amplifier and Benchmark DAC1 as the source? Those two options are mid triple digit components. Certainly, because they aren't in the four figures, they can't qualify as being high end? Right? So right there your argument that you think you know what the HD800 was designed for holds no water.

Third, here you go again concerning yourself with what other people are occupied with and actually expelling energy being worried about what other people do with their own time and money. So now people buy higher end items for the sole reason of wanting to be "in" with the cool kids? Only people with lots of money to spend in society are "cool"? What is "cool" anyway? I stopped caring about what is and isn't "cool" in junior high.

If I like the performance of a headphone, or car, or motorcycle, why can't I simply be an enthusiast wanting to use said product? Why are you automatically labeling people that want to spend their own earned money on these items as posers, simply because they don't want to research the history of headphones and/or how a combustion engine works? Are you seriously implying that I need to know how to assemble and disassemble the motor in my Ferrari should I want to purchase one? I need to know how to work on 4 cylinders and Vtwin motors if I want to purchase a motorcycle? Here is something you may be able to relate to, assuming the TVR in your name is what I think it is, I can't purchase a sparkling lime green Sagaris simply because I think it looks amazing and has an impressive power to weight ratio?(I'm far more of a car enthusiast than I ever will be of headphones) I can't make these types of purchases simply because I like the aesthetics and performance these object provide me? Come on now, you can't possibly be serious with this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvrboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think we have a lot of that mentality going on in this forum, people who desperately want this one particular headphone because they think it will instantly bring them into the promised land of hi-fi. Just make this one purchase and you will have great sound forever! Sorry that ain't true. So if you wanna run a HD800 from an ipod and you are happy with it, that's fine. But don't presume other people are being elitist when they tell you your system is not that great.

Here we go again with more of the exaggeration I talked about in my previous post and concerning ones self with what other people do with their time and money. Not once have I labeled anyone "elitist" in this thread, but I have a hard time understanding where the line falls between great and "not that great". So now we are equating the STX Essence with an Ipod? Certainly you're not trying to imply they have simliar sound quality? I actually have experience and have heard both. I know you're wrong.

Please provide us all with an example of what you think a "great system" is. I'd like to understand your perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvrboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I gotta say if you only have a few hundred bucks to spend, you probably shouldn't buy a headphone that you can't afford to power. That's what I did twice, and I had to sit around the house until I could afford an amplifier. It wasn't fun. Even when I hadn't heard anything better, I couldn't delude myself into thinking that a HD650 from a total bithead sounded fantastic. I love it how people can buy a K701 but it's "out of their budget" to get an amp. Like the headphone is an essential but the amp is totally frivolous. Again, audio equipment is part of a system. Some people need to just be honest with themselves and admit they just want a headphone for status/ego reasons. Nothing wrong with that, you just gotta be honest with yourself.

A headphone for status and ego reasons? Hilarious. I can't recall the last time I read someone here talking about a high end headphone purchase they made in a bragging manner, as if the sole primary reason they made said purchase wasn't to actually use the headphone but instead to parade it around head-fi in hopes of impressing others. Check my profile for the various high end headphones I have owned in the past and then go back and try and find one single post where I ever presented that I owned one as an attempt to boost my status or ego around these parts.

Do you really truly think the majority of high end headphone owners on this site made their purchases with the thought in the back of their mind that they would be impressing other people sitting in front of their monitor many miles away that they will probably never meet in real life? Do you really think the majority of people think like you or care about petty stuff like this?

Do you realize how shallow you make yourself sound with a this kind of broad generalizing statement?

 

[adrift]

Quote:

Originally Posted by midoo1990 /img/forum/go_quote.gif No,I don't say that my k701 sound the same from my iPod as amped,but I say it keep me tapping my foot and keep me smiling.the amp ofcourse make it better in everyway but it is pleasurable enough if I have to give up my amp.

Hmm. Okay. I guess to each their own.

 

[TStewart422]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif I understand the desire for measurements. It's nice to be able to quantify this stuff. I don't have what you seek, but data is always welcome. As for the rest of your argument, if you believe your rig is as good as anything else out there, I certainly have no problem with that. However, one question I have is are you relying on measurements as a proxy for listening to other rigs, or have you actually had the chance to listen to "higher-end" rigs and found no difference in SQ compared to your own setup?

The only REAL comparison I've done was very simple. It was with my RSA Mustang + HeadRoom Total Bithead vs. an iPod. I tried my darndest to match the volume as closely as possible and then listened with my HD650s. Believe me, I WANTED to hear the differences! I mean, that was a $600 setup vs. an iPod! I KNEW that the amp + DAC would BLOW IT OUT OF THE WATER! I listened as closely as I could and the conclusion I eventually hit was OTHER than the whirring of the iPod's hard-drive between songs, I couldn't tell a difference. Talk about a sick feeling...

Now, as far as comparing big desktop amps, the only one I've done was between the E-MU 0404's and the PreSonus. Again, not exactly "high-end," but I also heard no difference between the two.

Now, if I plug my Grados into the PreSonus... bad things happen! Low-impedance phones don't go too well with amps with a higher impedance.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you really truly think the majority of high end headphone owners on this site made their purchases with the thought in the back of their mind that they would be impressing other people sitting in front of their monitor many miles away that they will probably never meet in real life? Do you really think the majority of people think like you are care about petty stuff like this? Do you realize how shallow you make yourself sound with a this kind of broad generalizing statement?

subtle, I don't agree that the premise is as outrageous as you make it seem. IMO, there's a significant amount of vocal posters (far from the majority, though) to whom instant credibility/expertise on this site appears to be very important. One such way these posters appear to hope to achieve such "status" seems to be to buy a high end headphone or FOTM piece of equipment, then engage in endless raves/discussions about it, rinse and repeat. This site often reminds me of a bunch of guys showing off the new shiny accessories for their cars. Silly, to be sure (and I've probably been guilty of it, too), but don't you think there's at least some of that going on? Or am I missing the point?

 

[TStewart422]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif But I'm curious TStewart422, have you done the measurements and tests that you're demanding of others, or are you being just as arrogant as your accusing others of being? Blind testing of amps is not a trivial process because of the problem of level matching.

You can call me Tommy. The sn route is so robotic.

No, I personally have not done these measurements. I'm afraid that I do not own the (REALLY EXPENSIVE!) equipment that it takes to do such things accurately. However, there have been others that have (see: Sound Science forum). Does this make me arrogant? Maybe. We all have our character flaws...

You are ABSOLUTELY correct! Level-matching needs to be used when comparing ANYTHING musically! This includes CDs! GREAT point!

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStewart422 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The only REAL comparison I've done was very simple. It was with my RSA Mustang + HeadRoom Total Bithead vs. an iPod. I tried my darndest to match the volume as closely as possible and then listened with my HD650s. Believe me, I WANTED to hear the differences! I mean, that was a $600 setup vs. an iPod! I KNEW that the amp + DAC would BLOW IT OUT OF THE WATER! I listened as closely as I could and the conclusion I eventually hit was OTHER than the whirring of the iPod's hard-drive between songs, I couldn't tell a difference. Talk about a sick feeling... Now, as far as comparing big desktop amps, the only one I've done was between the E-MU 0404's and the PreSonus. Again, not exactly "high-end," but I also heard no difference between the two. Now, if I plug my Grados into the PreSonus... bad things happen! Low-impedance phones don't go too well with amps with a higher impedance.

I know what you mean about wanting to hear differences and wanting to like a component. I've been in such a state with DACs for the last several months. It is very difficult to separate out what I am hearing versus what I want to hear. And of course there's always the very real problem of volume matching. One suggestion I do have for you is to attend a meet so you can hear some of these other rigs without having to drop a ton of cash. Meet conditions are far from ideal, but at least it would provide a subjective measurement (FWIW) to accompany any other measurements you procure.

 

[Shike]

My problem with meets is it generally plays on bias, group think, and various other psychological phenomena.

As for TStewart422, I said this in another thread myself:

It's better to be a rich skeptic than a poor believer.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStewart422 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The only REAL comparison I've done was very simple. It was with my RSA Mustang + HeadRoom Total Bithead vs. an iPod. <snip> Now, as far as comparing big desktop amps, the only one I've done was between the E-MU 0404's and the PreSonus. Again, not exactly "high-end," but I also heard no difference between the two.

Wait, what? The only real comparison you did was using two amps coupled together (the Bithead is not a standalone source) and compared that to your Ipod and therefore decided that no sort of SS amplification would make a difference. Oh, wait, you also compared your amp to a glorified soundcard and decided that was good enough. Color me unimpressed and I'd suggest you post less and listen more otherwise you're actions are essentially trolling and will be treated as such.

And if you want more measurements to look at they are out there and products which at first appear to have been well designed often do not perform up to their visual standard. And yes, I've seen the measurements that I'm referring to and know enough to understand that simply providing a uniform frequency response graph into an unknown load is 100% worthless given the wide range of impedances the common headphone grouping around here represents. That's to say nothing of those headphones rated sensitivities which also plays a significant role in whether or not amplification is required.

 

[TStewart422]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wait, what? The only real comparison you did was using two amps coupled together (the Bithead is not a standalone source) and compared that to your Ipod and therefore decided that no sort of SS amplification would make a difference. Oh, wait, you also compared your amp to a glorified soundcard and decided that was good enough. Color me unimpressed and I'd suggest you post less and listen more otherwise you're actions are essentially trolling and will be treated as such.

I rest my case. Gentlemen, I'm bowing out of this convo before I get banned. I hope my presence in this thread was beneficial for some of you.

 

[LevA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvrboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, I have that mentality. Just my personal feelings, if I owned a HD800 without a high end source and amp I would feel very silly. I'm not saying that others should feel silly, but that's how I would feel. The HD800 was designed to be just one part of a system. That's what high end audio is, a system. Not just plug and play. I think we have this mentality in our society that anyone can just buy their way into a culture or hobby without learning anything. Just buy one thing and bam, you are an instant "audiophile." Lots of people buy Ducatis and Harley Davidsons and want to be part of the sport bike / cruiser culture without even knowing a single thing about the history of the bikes, racing pedigree, or how the engines work. They just think once they spend the cash they will be "in" with the cool kids. I think we have a lot of that mentality going on in this forum, people who desperately want this one particular headphone because they think it will instantly bring them into the promised land of hi-fi. Just make this one purchase and you will have great sound forever! Sorry that ain't true. So if you wanna run a HD800 from an ipod and you are happy with it, that's fine. But don't presume other people are being elitist when they tell you your system is not that great. I gotta say if you only have a few hundred bucks to spend, you probably shouldn't buy a headphone that you can't afford to power. That's what I did twice, and I had to sit around the house until I could afford an amplifier. It wasn't fun. Even when I hadn't heard anything better, I couldn't delude myself into thinking that a HD650 from a total bithead sounded fantastic.I love it how people can buy a K701 but it's "out of their budget" to get an amp. Like the headphone is an essential but the amp is totally frivolous. Again, audio equipment is part of a system. Some people need to just be honest with themselves and admit they just want a headphone for status/ego reasons. Nothing wrong with that, you just gotta be honest with yourself.

I've been following some of the discussion on this thread, and while there is some merit on what is being said, in all honesty you do come off as lecturing newbies (which I consider myself to be).
on the one hand you criticize newbies wanting to be elitist by just buying an expensive headphone but then you go on about how people should not be buying expensive items such as ducati, harley etc without knowing the history etc. which frankly smells like elitism.

I also think this topic is blown out of proportion. yes there might be the odd one here and there trying to get a headphone without maybe considering their setup, but most people who would spend just a day or two can figure out that they would need a matching setup for their hps to get the best sound out of it. you really don't have to try hard to learn that AKG701 are hard to drive if you just take a moment to look at the threads here on head-fi. it has been plenty said, let alone how some just don't like the sound no matter what amp you use to drive it. it's just a personal choice.
as for HD800, I am sure that most people - especially newbies who are willing to shell out the $1400 cost and have no experience with hi-fi would do some research before getting it - and will become obvious to them how it really needs a good amp to shine. all they have to do is to read a threw threads on HD800. its not a major secret, its all out there...seriously, who spends that amount of money on a headphone without doing a little research?

as for those who don't buy an amp initially, most likely people don't have the money right away and are planning to buy an amp down the road. this may not be a good idea for you (we get it) but that doesn't mean they are somehow wrong. for most people here on head-fi this is a hobby, and by its nature it is a long term investment, where you build your setup or upgrades slowly. how they go about achieving this is their own concern.

I agree that if you want to get the most out of your headphones, you should try to get a good matching setup, whether that might be for portable DAP+portable amp with iems or easy to drive hps, or dedicated player+home/desktop amp with full sized HPs.
but if they feel happy with their full size hp's straight out of their computer so be it. I'm sure they are aware of what they are missing, but this is their choice.
btw, i don't see many post where people are recommending they should get hd800 or 701's for their ipods. they might comment on the fact that some hp's are listenable without an amp but that is hardly a recommendation.
in the end, this thread looks more like your ego than those who you criticize for buying expensive HPs without an amp.