[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kel Ghu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, yeah I know I could buy a home amp, but a portable is what fits my needs because I travel a lot and I am away from home for 6 months and I began reading you guys in this forum right before going away... So I can't buy a home amp right now... Even though I bougth the amps originaly for my 1st headphone, I aquired HD650, PRO2500, K518DJ and also reviewed the amp with SR80 and SR225. Still, the improvement over my laptop is not that obvious and does not make a whole difference to a newb ear. I guess a home amp will show more difference, but I am not even sure now... So it's either my untrained ear (which is getting more trained everyday...) or the portable amps that are unsuited for use (how is that possible?). I am satisfied with my I got because it is good... But a bit less happy than before I got those amps, because of the money I spent for little improvement. I was expecting more. I could have bought more cans instead. It's more rewarding A lot of newbie comes here for advices, but opinion are often exagerated to untrained ear imho. That is why I am posting this. Like we see same threads about cans every week, expect to see people share their opinion and experience, good or bad...

With the exception of the 225s and the 518DJ (I can't say because I haven't heard them), there's not a single headphone you listed that would be improved in any great measure by a portable amp with the exception of maybe the 2500s, which do okay, and the SR80s, which should show some slight improvement, but better and more noticeably, again, with a home amp. If portability was a primary consideration, why didn't you look into headphones for portability? There are really good ones out there. I'm personally quite fond of the ESW9, which sound good unamped, and really nice out of many portables, including the pico with my laptop. You bought AKG and Sennheiser's top-of-the-line reference headphones that were made for dedicated home audio systems and are now complaining that they don't do what you expected when you short-changed them with poor choices based on wishful thinking rather than information. You're right that maybe your hearing isn't tuned yet to the qualities good dacs, amps and headphones bring, and that's always a learning process, but it's not the gear that's faulty when you try to turn something into something it's not. It's like saying you bought a Ferrari because you heard it was great car, and then complained that doesn't do well on mud-filled backwoods roads because that's where you like to drive. If you went to a car forum and started complaining, you'd be laughed right on out of there. No one is doing that here, but before you start making pronouncements about how you can't hear changes, please note that you made choices that wouldn't give you the changes to hear.

It's an old thread, and somewhat noisy, but after the past couple weeks of reading threads like the ones kpeezy mentioned, perhaps it's time to break it out again:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/dis...-trend-264859/

 

[LeeMark]

I have the K701, and have no problem hearing a difference using the RSA predator, but that is mainly with lossless files out of the ipod. I also can hear a big difference with the amp with Triple fis, I think part of this is training your ear. I have had audiophile rigs for 20 years and you definitely get better at hearing differences between sources, amps, speakers and even cables and line conditioners. Once you hear these differences, you can't stop hearing them. Bottom line, like the immunologist said, whatever you can do to help you enjoy the music, do it. I am more of a TH17 cell myself.

Lee

 

[helperTcell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocdoc /img/forum/go_quote.gif How the hell do I quote stuff here? I'm so inept... helper Tcell, I couldn't agree more. Since getting decent sounding gear, I find it impossible to put my headphones on and work while listening to music. I end up putting my book down and just drifting off in blissful transportation... I like!... Yagshemash! You an immunologist?

A headphone wearin', foot tappin' veterinary pathologist. Currently listening to New Order's Technique - favourite track = Mr Disco!

 

[helperTcell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeMark /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am more of a TH17 cell myself. Lee

Nice

, but I'll stick with my CD4+ Th2 cell. Maybe stretch to a NK cell at a pinch...

Having erroneously started my head-fi "journey" with a Hornet/AKG combo, I would say that Boomana's comments are spot on.

 

[Bizzel]

Just to pick up on the differences between equipment being subtle. Yes, it is subtle but you need to spend some serious time getting to know your rig. Throw it some classical, some rock, some dance, some jazz and get a feel for its strengths and weaknesses so that when you make a change, you can really hear it.

When I went to my first Head-Fi meet, I immediately fell in love with the HD650s and I was lucky enough to be able to swap between a stock pair and a recabled pair (the SAA Equinox, I believe) as often I wanted. Could I hear a difference? Not a thing.

Having had the 650s for nearly half a year and having racked up countless hours listening to them, I tried the Zu Mobius cable at the Scotland meet and the difference was so much bigger. I went out and bought one of Alex's V3 cables and again the difference between that and the stock cable is, to me, huge but to someone who's not that familiar with the 650s it might be difficult to hear.

 

[Kel Ghu]

I am looking forward to hearing improvement from a home rig over a portable rig. But I have read some many opinions about the pico and the predator that maybe misled me. And I say maybe, because I have not tried any good home rig yet, only standard home sound systems. It seems like many people were impressed by the Pico and the Predator because it was so good. Some people even said it sounded like a desktop rig (tested with the same cans I've got)... I am a total newbie, but listened to the connaisseurs and took as many advices as I could. But it seems like opinions can be very divergent. That's what I wanted to point out...

I don't listen to music while commuting, but in hotel rooms or in my temporary appartment in LA. That's why a portable suits my needs and I wanted the best ones. I bought all the cans here in LA and I will probably sell most of them before I get back to Europe.

I newbie forum would be a great idea! It would clean up the connaisseurs forum a bit.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpeezy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sad that you have to keep posting this. These threads are getting old.

The problem could be that for every post telling folks that cans like the 701s really need a powerful amp (but never quite defining what that means), there are a dozen fanboy raves for the flavor of the month claiming it drives 701s and 650s to aural bliss - with its 9 volt battery and DAC the size of a postage stamp.

And at the other end, the veterans rarely take the time to explain what they mean by "won't properly drive," and consistently fail to fess up to the subtlety of the effects they're talking about, to people who are sitting there in front of their computers, listening to their hard-to-drive phones sounding pretty good, delivering more detail and deeper bass than their speaker systems in all likelihood, straight out of their unamped sources (depending, of course, on the unamped source). It doesn't exactly build credibility.

Last but not least, there appear to be no meaningful specification standards in headphone audio. I've asked for them in a few threads, then placed a very direct question about them in a new thread this morning. It already sank to the bottom of page 2 without a single reply. I can only conclude that the appearance of no meaningful specs is a reality, or the leaders of this community don't get them any more than I do.

This is not an easy place for noob navigation. Trust me. And the net result is that the kinds of answers the OP is getting here, when held up against his buying/listening experience and his reading here in the forum, come across as "just keep spendin' money, son. You'll get it sooner or later." If that sounds harsh, I apologize. But it is real.

Tim

 

[Jaska]

Tim, all I can say is I greatly enjoy your posts.

 

[tfarney]

Here's another problem associated with this issue; directly from Sennheiser's description of the HD650:

Quote:

Can be directly connected to stationary hi-fi components of the highest quality, in particular SACD, DVD-A and CD players

Now, I grant you, it says "stationary," and "highest quality," but if anyone, after reading these forums for a couple of weeks, doesn't come to the conclusion that the output from a Pico, or any of the popular portable amps around here does not exceed that of the headphone jack of almost any SACD, DVD-A or CD player, they came to the party with a measure of skepticism that exceeds my own (which is quite healthy), by a great measure.

AKG's description of the K701 does not have a note like this, but neither does it have a note about its requirement for proper amplification. It merely leaves the music lover to the logical assumption that you plug them into a headphone jack and they'll deliver what they were made to deliver.

Tim

 

[Kel Ghu]

They don't mention that you also need well engineered high dynamic range music to take full advantage of your amp and headphone. And that is limited to a certain style of music that often are classical, jazz, etc... So even having a good amp is usually useless in most cases... Does it mean we should not buy good amps and good cans for the average engineered music? Or should we all listen to jazz? Most of the music is engineered for amps like CD players and such. So a pico should be enough for most music. No?
Anyway, what they should know is an amp doesn't make that much difference especially if they don't have a good source, which is probably the case for most of them, me included. But even with bad source, headphones do make great differences in the way our music sounds, even poorly amped even if we don't fully take advantage of them.

I was not expecting any answer by beginning this thread. I just wanted to share my experience with all the noobs out there searching for answers like I did.

 

[The Pieman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem could be that for every post telling folks that cans like the 701s really need a powerful amp (but never quite defining what that means), there are a dozen fanboy raves for the flavor of the month claiming it drives 701s and 650s to aural bliss - with its 9 volt battery and DAC the size of a postage stamp. And at the other end, the veterans rarely take the time to explain what they mean by "won't properly drive," and consistently fail to fess up to the subtlety of the effects they're talking about, to people who are sitting there in front of their computers, listening to their hard-to-drive phones sounding pretty good, delivering more detail and deeper bass than their speaker systems in all likelihood, straight out of their unamped sources (depending, of course, on the unamped source). It doesn't exactly build credibility. Last but not least, there appear to be no meaningful specification standards in headphone audio. I've asked for them in a few threads, then placed a very direct question about them in a new thread this morning. It already sank to the bottom of page 2 without a single reply. I can only conclude that the appearance of no meaningful specs is a reality, or the leaders of this community don't get them any more than I do. This is not an easy place for noob navigation. Trust me. And the net result is that the kinds of answers the OP is getting here, when held up against his buying/listening experience and his reading here in the forum, come across as "just keep spendin' money, son. You'll get it sooner or later." If that sounds harsh, I apologize. But it is real. Tim

This is becoming a rather repetitive response. It appears to be the responsibility of the more experienced members to provide some "standards" for "newbies" with regards to what is required for compatibility between certain headphones and amps. The logical conclusion from this is that you someone to tell you what to buy. Wrong! I was new once and I did the hard yards and the research before I purchased. Even then it was no guarantee it was the right purchase. Different amps and headphones sound different to different people. There is a degree of trial and error to the whole process unless you are lucky enough to be able to audition everything before purchase which I never could.

Withe regards to the AKG701, there are buckets of threads in Head-Fi which state that you need more than a portable amp to drive them, and other cans such as HD650s to their full potential. I found these threads. It isn't that hard.

My questions to you are:-

1) Who do you want to set the "standards"?

2) What do you want to see in the standard?

3) Who do you go to for adjudication when you perceive a "standard" to be incorrect?

4) Who owns the "standard"?

5) Who has the finger pointed at them when a perceived wrong purchase is made by a new person?

This is a hobby with all the vagaries that hobbies have. Part of the beauty of a hobby like this is the discovery along the way, whether they be bad or good. I would guess that nearly every head-fier has made a dud purchase along the way somewhere. I know I have. Sh1t happens.

Do the work, i.e. research, and you will get the results. Do not expect the others to do it for you. What others tell you may not necessarily be to your taste, sonically. You are the only person that can make that choice.

cheers
Simon

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is not an easy place for noob navigation. Trust me. And the net result is that the kinds of answers the OP is getting here, when held up against his buying/listening experience and his reading here in the forum, come across as "just keep spendin' money, son. You'll get it sooner or later." If that sounds harsh, I apologize. But it is real. Tim

I agree that it can be overwhelming, especially when trying to decipher good information from bad, but common sense simply has to come into play at some point, and it's really not that hard.

The "just keep spendin' money, son" attitude isn't coming folks who have been around. That's just not true. Most try to caution folks to spend wisely rather than wasting money on the new hottest whatever, mostly by telling them to think of the whole rig when setting out to buy anything, and telling them to research before buying. If the op had posted that he had K701s and was going to spend $1000 on two portable amp/dacs to drive them, no one would tell him not to spend his money, but more than a few would have said that he might want to look at better options for those headphones, or if he wanted the amp/dacs, to look at different headphones.

Here's some advice. Stay out of the gear forums for awhile and start reading the meet impressions threads. You get the opinions of many experienced listeners who are listening to whole rigs. Take a look at what they have and what they like or don't. Start there. Also, if you look at some of the larger meets where vendors are present, take a look at which headphones and/or sources the the amp builders are using to show off their products.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pieman /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is becoming a rather repetitive response. It appears to be the responsibility of the more experienced members to provide some "standards" for "newbies" with regards to what is required for compatibility between certain headphones and amps. The logical conclusion from this is that you someone to tell you what to buy.

Fair enough. It hasn't become as repetitive as threads declaring you can't drive certain phones without a high-current AC amp, a point that the manufacturers of those phones never mention and sometimes even contradict. It's nowhere close to as repetitive as the user reviews praising the prowess of their amps in contradiction to the above. But fair enough.

Tim

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree that it can be overwhelming, especially when trying to decipher good information from bad, but common sense simply has to come into play at some point, and it's really not that hard. The "just keep spendin' money, son" attitude isn't coming folks who have been around. That's just not true. Most try to caution folks to spend wisely rather than wasting money on the new hottest whatever, mostly by telling them to think of the whole rig when setting out to buy anything, and telling them to research before buying. If the op had posted that he had K701s and was going to spend $1000 on two portable amp/dacs to drive them, no one would tell him not to spend his money, but more than a few would have said that he might want to look at better options for those headphones, or if he wanted the amp/dacs, to look at different headphones. Here's some advice. Stay out of the gear forums for awhile and start reading the meet impressions threads. You get the opinions of many experienced listeners who are listening to whole rigs. Take a look at what they have and what they like or don't. Start there. Also, if you look at some of the larger meets where vendors are present, take a look at which headphones and/or sources the the amp builders are using to show off their products.

I didn't say that "just keep spending money, son" is anyone's real attitude. Only that when someone like the OP follows the guidance of one contingent through the purchase of two amps, doesn't hear any gain, than has another Head-Fi contingent come along to tell him he needs to buy another, different kind of amp, it would be pretty easy to get that impression.

Concentrating on the meet threads for awhile sounds like good advice.

Tim

 

[PITTM]

I have posted here for a pretty long time now and I have done hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of research on the products I have bought. I didn't log on to head-fi and on my first day expect for everyone to give me a million answers, throw thousands of dollars around and just hope I get a good system. I am kind of getting tired of the "head-fi has too much information"..."I bought ______ and i cant tell the difference, my advice is not to waste your time buying headphone stuff".

There are two things every new member should do:
1) find a meet near your area, go attend, try EVERYTHING, decide what you like and build your system that way. Right away I knew I hated grados(i will admit the hf-1 are AWESOME), loved senns, akg's and beyers, wasnt a big corda or headroom amp(love love love the microdac though) fan, loved ray samuels, wooaudio and singlepower amps. I have based my purchases around these preferences.

2) RESEARCH your purchases. Don't just start a "what amp is good for my k701s?!?!" thread and take the first answer you see. I know this is a bit oversaid, but USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION. Before I bought my woo, which people said paired great with the k701s, I read probably every thread about the Woo since it came out, I saw lots of good, some bad, remembered my impressions, knew the amps were made in the US by a builder who put quality builds as a very important quality in his business and knew this was what I wanted.

By no means am I saying we should force people to do this, but complaining to a community about the purchase one made while not doing a whole lot of independent research is just mind boggling to me. Sorry.