[Old School]

This is exactly kind of discussion I wanted to see, I was reading forum for about a month before making my first purchase and even than I was mistaken, so I was glad I started a post and asked members about their opinions.
I wanted to have a good portable rig, to use around the house, with good soundstage and musicality , I got ipod itouch and Iqube portable amp and I was under impression, since it can drive low and high gain headphones no problem, my best bet is to get hd650 with upgraded cables, but than I saw in my post that few people mentioned that it would be a poor choice for this amp, even though I would be able to hear them I would not get even close to the sound that these were design for, so I have opted for triple.fi which I suppose to get in few days .
I know what I want to hear. I had a sunfire with perpetual technologies combo driving Martin Logans and the sound was really enjoyable with huge soundstage, if you would close your eyes, you might think that musicians are standing in the room in the front of you and this is what I expect from my portable rig.
Perhaps, my expactations are to high, but I'm willing to find out, to enjoy the music on the go

 

[boomana]

PITTM, don't be sorry. You're right.

Folks, if you can't get to a meet, which many can't, read the meet impressions threads. Many people posting all the "buy this because it's the best" threads have only heard that one item. At meets, many people have heard/owned a lot of gear so their comments reflect a wider perspective and they're not as easily caught up in FOTM hooey. Also, the folks listening are listening to complete rigs and the same rigs everyone else is listening to, so you can read how more than one person perceived the same system.

Re research, PITTM is right again, but pay attention to who is recommending what. If someone basically lives in this forum in one or two threads about the same product, are you sure you want to take his advice without considering the opinion of others who have heard a lot more? That person could be right, but could also be a shill, even if of the fanboy variety. There's a lot of that going on around here now, both in headphoneland and amps. Some self-appointed experts aren't that at all, even if though there's nothing wrong with people liking what they like and saying it. Same as I stated earlier: if someone is going on about how something is soooo great, find out what else they've heard. I liked my ibuds for a time, too.

Blah blah etc. If you don't like what you've bought, before complaining in a thread about your gear or veterans lack of daily spoon feeding, check your side of the street first. If you didn't look at building a system, and starting grabbing at components that ended up ill-matched, that's no one's fault but your own. If you got sucked into FOTM hype without considering other factors, that's a lack of common sense and, again, no one's fault but your own. If you wanted to buy a headphone like the K701s that need a home amp to sound decent and then crippled them with portable amps and sources and then didn't like them, you never gave them a real chance. You might not like the AKG sound in general, but how would you know? It's your fault for short-changing them, since there's no lack of easily accessible information all over this forum.

 

[vorlon1]

Give us that "tough love," Boom.

 

[mrarroyo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... If you wanted to buy a headphone like the K701s that need a home amp to sound decent and then crippled them with portable amps and sources and then didn't like them, you never gave them a real chance. You might not like the AKG sound in general, but how would you know? It's your fault for short-changing them, since there's no lack of easily accessible information all over this forum.

Vicky, I know that you and many others believe this. I could even say believe strongly. Unfortunetly I am in the minority in that I do not agree with this statement, sorry.

Why don't I agree? First because there are many factors which could make a portable amp more than capable to effectively drive a can like the K701 out of a portable amp. Examples of these are:

1. How loud does the person listen. I can tell you that most of the time while my portable amp is at 9 o'clock or lower a mutual friend is at noon or 1 o'clock. Of course this goes hand in hand with the individual's unique hearing sensitivity.
2. How much output does the source being used has? For example my 4th Gen iMod puts out about 1 V/rms, while my Arcam DiVA CD73 puts out 2.2 V/rms. So if I feed an amp w/ both I do not need to put the amp volume as high when using the higher output source. Although I will say that the iMod w/ lossless files is a superb source.
3. Where do you listen at? If at home in a quiet environment, office at a bit louder background noise, or in a train/bus on the way to work. Each of these affects the amount of power needed to listen above the background noise.
4. Gain of the amp as well as the quality of the amp. I am not trying to b an snob here but some amps like the LaRocco PRII MkII or SR71 or MiniBox-E+ do sound superior to others. At least they do to me.
5. Quality of the reconding, like dynamic range.
6. Quality of the interconnect from the iModded iPod to the amp. Recently you had the opportunity to compare two IC's and as I recall the 99.999% Cryo Silver was your favorite.

I am not trying to convince anyone, I am just saying that not all of us believe the same since we all have different expectations, gear, music type, and EARS.

 

[greggf]

Wow. Great thread.

What Head-Fi is all about is, unfortunately, something known as "response bombardment," an idea put forth by a French psychologist named Pierre Turquet.

"Response bombardment" is what happens in large groups - and Head-Fi is now large and busy - when there are "too many responses, from too many people," of radically-differing quality or reliability.

"Too much stimuli of too low quality" is a trademark of large internet forums of any kind, and a hallmark of response bombardment.

When this happens, it's hard to glean good info from bad. It also ruins the credibility of forums - hence the new headphone forums that are sprouting up, often populated by the best & the brightest veterans of the older forums.

Tim is responding to that with his frustration. Boomana is also responding to this frustration from another direction, trying to, as Turquet says, "prevent response bombardment from overwhelming the selves of the members" (of the group - Head-Fi, in this case).

The repeats of these threads, of Tim's repeated frustrations, of boomana's need to constantly try to make her point heard over the din of the bombardment of nonsense and trivia, proves that:


It's time for the management of Head-Fi to look into ways of ordering the information available here in the site, in a way that takes advantage of "wise elders" such as boomana (I have no idea how old you are, but you certainly are wise!), and accommodates the needs of noobs like the o.p.

As it stands right now, Head-Fi is a cheap gear shi**ing machine, pumping out lots and lots of FOTM and portable stuff designed more to frustrate would-be hobbyists (and fatten the coffers of the same-old same-old vendors) rather than get them addicted and fat and happy.

 

[Kel Ghu]

Thank you guys for your opinion!
But in my OP, I was not complaining that my cans sounded bad nor was I dissappointed of my portable amps. Every one is talking about how to improve the sound of the K701, that old portable vs home amps debate or how choosen right equipment is important. I was just saying that it was hard for me to hear the difference between my Pico and my Predator, not that they were bad! Not at all! If the difference was obvious as it is for different headphones, I should be able to hear the difference of those two amps out of any cans! It's not the case and you guys know it!
I even got 2 PM from Justin, one telling me that it is only easy to tell the difference between two amp if it is SS vs Tube. Not that I believe more Justin than you guys, but at least there is someone many people respect (me included) who tells me that I am not entirely wrong, even if I am a newbie.

Maybe I should have put it another way... I think newbies like me should focus on headphones first. It is much more rewarding to our sonical knowledge. And sound signature differences between cans will remain mostly the same even with different amps. They should definitely get an amp, but if they have a good amp, then they should not buy a second one of the same category, unless small subtle improvements in sound make a whole lot of difference to them. Because it does not to me... I know it does to all the experts here...

This thread was meant for the newbies... But it seems like the experts are more concerned...

 

[kpeezy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow. Great thread. What Head-Fi is all about is, unfortunately, something known as "response bombardment," an idea put forth by a French psychologist named Pierre Turquet. "Response bombardment" is what happens in large groups - and Head-Fi is now large and busy - when there are "too many responses, from too many people," of radically-differing quality or reliability. "Too much stimuli of too low quality" is a trademark of large internet forums of any kind, and a hallmark of response bombardment. When this happens, it's hard to glean good info from bad. It also ruins the credibility of forums - hence the new headphone forums that are sprouting up, often populated by the best & the brightest veterans of the older forums. Tim is responding to that with his frustration. Boomana is also responding to this frustration from another direction, trying to, as Turquet says, "prevent response bombardment from overwhelming the selves of the members" (of the group - Head-Fi, in this case). The repeats of these threads, of Tim's repeated frustrations, of boomana's need to constantly try to make her point heard over the din of the bombardment of nonsense and trivia, proves that: It's time for the management of Head-Fi to look into ways of ordering the information available here in the site, in a way that takes advantage of "wise elders" such as boomana (I have no idea how old you are, but you certainly are wise!), and accommodates the needs of noobs like the o.p. As it stands right now, Head-Fi is a cheap gear shi**ing machine, pumping out lots and lots of FOTM and portable stuff designed more to frustrate would-be hobbyists (and fatten the coffers of the same-old same-old vendors) rather than get them addicted and fat and happy.

Good post.

 

[mrarroyo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...portable stuff designed more to frustrate would-be hobbyists (and fatten the coffers of the same-old same-old vendors) rather than get them addicted and fat and happy.

I am not sure I can agree w/ this assessment. Just about everything in our economy changes with time.

I think the problem lies with the user rather than the vendor. The user needs to both research but more importantly to listen. To listen they need to go out to meets or to shops that may carry the gear they are interested in.

Sadly, many live in remote areas where a meet or a retailer may not be present or convenient. It is that group which would have the hardest time making an educated decision. Luckily many vendors here have a period of time in which they take back the gear at no cost. This although helpful is not the panacea it sounds like, if everyone ordered 3 amps with the intent of returning 2 the vendors would quickly stop the program. So a balance has to be reached, at this time I can not think of realistic solution. Perhaps one of you can and we all benefit.

So in closing I think that stating the problem is the vendors trying to fill their pockets with money is way off the mark, and is IMO very wrong to say so.

 

[fordgtlover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow. Great thread. What Head-Fi is all about is, unfortunately, something known as "response bombardment," an idea put forth by a French psychologist named Pierre Turquet. "Response bombardment" is what happens in large groups - and Head-Fi is now large and busy - when there are "too many responses, from too many people," of radically-differing quality or reliability. "Too much stimuli of too low quality" is a trademark of large internet forums of any kind, and a hallmark of response bombardment. When this happens, it's hard to glean good info from bad. It also ruins the credibility of forums - hence the new headphone forums that are sprouting up, often populated by the best & the brightest veterans of the older forums. Tim is responding to that with his frustration. Boomana is also responding to this frustration from another direction, trying to, as Turquet says, "prevent response bombardment from overwhelming the selves of the members" (of the group - Head-Fi, in this case). The repeats of these threads, of Tim's repeated frustrations, of boomana's need to constantly try to make her point heard over the din of the bombardment of nonsense and trivia, proves that: It's time for the management of Head-Fi to look into ways of ordering the information available here in the site, in a way that takes advantage of "wise elders" such as boomana (I have no idea how old you are, but you certainly are wise!), and accommodates the needs of noobs like the o.p. As it stands right now, Head-Fi is a cheap gear shi**ing machine, pumping out lots and lots of FOTM and portable stuff designed more to frustrate would-be hobbyists (and fatten the coffers of the same-old same-old vendors) rather than get them addicted and fat and happy.

Great post.

I don't think that Head-fi needs to change in any way. To my mind I see head-fi in the same light as any other information source - there are conflicting and competing views that the consumer needs to wade through and assess 'in their own context'.

Example:

If you want to buy a can of cola, but had never had previous exposure to a cola drink, what would you buy? Probably based on advertising and market hype, either coke or pepsi. What if you chose pepsi and didn't like it? Would you never buy another cola drink, or complain that the information you had was misleading? No. Reality is that you would probably try different brands until you found one you liked; after all, at $2 a can you can afford to try a few different ones until you find something you like. That is the key. It is a cheap enough product for you to explore options for yourself without needing objective criteria or 'accepted truths' to support your initial decision.

What about a higher $ cost purchase such as a car? Would you buy an Ariel Atom as you family car? Most likely not. Why not? Clearly, because you can apply objective criteria to the purchase and determine that it will not meet your needs. Would you buy one and then complain that you can't fit a child's booster seat?

We often make these objective assessments without necessarily realising - the requirements and constraints are often all very obvious.

However, it all gets a bit harder when it comes to a purchase for which there are some objective criteria and some less obvious criteria, while satisfaction with the purchase will be primarily based on a subjective assessment. Headphone amps fit into this category. The simple (and easy) objective criteria relates to whether you want to be able to carry the amp with you or not; eg. portable and battery powered. The less obvious (requires a bit more research) criteria will include whether your headphones will actually benefit from more power,and whether the amp has enough power to drive them. These tend to be the fuzzy information that are difficult to quantify, measure and justify, but they are usually supported by the community and may be considered 'accepted truths'.

Finally, the absolutely subjective criteria of whether there is 'synergy' between the amp in question and the headphones you wish to drive, and whether you will like the 'sound' of the amp.

It strikes me that there are more than a few head-fiers (new and not), who may assess the more objective criteria appropriately in their own context, but ignore or don't research enough to find the 'accepted truths'. They buy the wrong amp, and then, when it comes to their own subjective assessment, the results are poor.

Unfortunately, in audio there are very few objective criteria, and only a few 'accepted truths'; most of the assessment is subjective and relates to detail that the majority of the population would never care to discerne.

Sometimes, you will still 'underwhelmed' with your new purchase, regardless of the amount of research you do - such is the audio journey.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpeezy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sad that you have to keep posting this. These threads are getting old.

Why? She is right.

 

[greggf]

fordgtlover,

Great post and wonderful points.

I think you're right: headphones and headphone amps are in difficult price-point territories, where it's both too easy to buy 'n' try many, yet still too expensive and inconvenient for most to buy 'n' try too many, as opposed to trying different colas, which is cheap 'n' easy, or trying many different automobiles, which is too expensive except for Bill Gates.

And yes, even worse, audio improvements are subjective, and the last few percent of improvement (or mere change) are expensive and difficult to come by and even more subjective and whim-driven.

When you put all this onto a terrain where the other players - spouses, girlfriends, the mass public - are inattentive or blissfully unaware or unconcerned or less neurotic or less obsessed or less fetishistic or are outright derisive of our hobby, well.............

To complicate these matters even further, I find the bulk of the problem, not just with headphones but in many consumer areas, to be an American one, or at least one where Americans are clearly taking the lead in drivenness or obsessiveness. Witness the relative lack of headphone amplifiers in certain European countries or S. America or wherever. Very strange waters. Very strange hobby.

And the relative ease of entry, price-wise, into the hobby, while still being damned expensive, leads to many confusions and frustrations and exaggerations.............

 

[Jaska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Witness the relative lack of headphone amplifiers in certain European countries

This is strange indeed. I'm not aware of any Finnish-produced headphone amplifiers, but I strongly suspect that if any came to market, they would be top notch. Loudspeaker technology here is simply phenomenal (Genelec, Olavi Räsänen, and on and on with the highly innovate smaller producers), and when keeping in mind the consumer electronics market (Nokia, for example), it makes me wonder why no one here seems to want to enter the headphone/headphone amp arena.

It seems that most of the hi-fi dealers here prefer to stick with mainstream products from the likes of Musical Fidelity. Apart from that, lots of Finnish hobbyists seem to follow threads here and carry on the discussions and product recommendations in Finnish-language forums, and people are willing to buy products from overseas.

 

[Dept_of_Alchemy]

You know what they say about the unexamined life...

 

[vvanrij]

There used to be really good dutch speakers though, Driade

 

[greggf]

I wonder if European manufacturers are unwilling to enter the headphone amp market because the U.S. dollar is so weak, which makes the U.S. market harder for them to sell in?

I see the Lehmann Black Cube Linear, which is a good headphone amp and is made in Germany, I believe, goes for $1100 at Elusive Disc in the U.S., yet the very similar PS Audio GCHA is $995 at Crutchfield, also in the U.S., probably because it is made in China and not Europe.

More Euro-engineered amps would be great to see. I think they'd have interesting approaches and priorities. And I bet they'd have better styling.