To DAC or not to DAC. Advice, please.

[hodgjy]

I've searched this forum for days and read what must be thousands of posts.  However, I didn't find an exact answer to my question.
 
Here is my current setup:
Teac PD-H300mkiii cd player ---> Woo Audio 3 ---> Beyer DT800 250 ohm.
 
I'm pretty happy with this system, but we all know part of this addicting hobby is to tweak, upgrade, and experiment.
 
I'm wondering if adding an external DAC will be a worthwhile upgrade.  There's not a lot of info here, or elsewhere on the internet, about my source.  Once review, however, called it a very detailed player ( http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/teac_reference_pdh300mkIII.htm ), although, I have no idea how trustworthy that reviewer is.
 
Anyway, if I were to get a DAC, I've already decided that the MF V-DAC is the one I'll get.  But before I pull the trigger, I'm hoping someone could critique my current setup and let me know if the V-DAC would be a welcome addition to it. 
 
The V-DAC is not sold locally, so I have no way to audition it.  It will be a purchase unheard, but after reading thousands of posts here, I'm convinced that is the DAC I would get IF I WERE TO GET ONE.
 
Thanks so much.
 

 

[Uncle Erik]

Are you talking about buying a DAC and then using your CD player as a transport, feeding the DAC? If so, what is it about your CD player that you don't like? If you aren't hearing distortion or other problems, then a DAC won't really do much for you. Sure, the output voltage will be slightly different than your CD player and you might interpret that as "better," but there aren't huge technical differences in digital sources these days. There will be disagreement about this, but I haven't heard a CD player that I thought sounded bad. Reliability is another issue, but if you're happy with what you have, why change?

On the other hand, a DAC would make sense if you have a lot of music ripped to your computer or if you're planning to start using computer-as-source. In that case, a DAC would make sense because it would do something your CD player doesn't.

And if you're just itching for a new piece of gear, get a turntable. A used Rega P3/Planar 3 is dead reliable, affordable and there's a cottage industry of tweaks and upgrades for them. You'll have a lot of fun with one. There are other good turntables out there, too. You can find a good one on almost any budget, too. The best thing about vinyl is that it unlocks another world of music to you. Sure, the 180g audiophile pressings are nice, but they're $40 each (or more) and are always things you can get on CD or SACD. What you want are the junk store, thrift shop and garage sale records. Where you can go get a whole box for $10. Stuff you've never heard of but looks interesting. And half of it never made it to digital. That's where the real magic of vinyl lies. Lots of cheap discs where you can explore new music without demolishing your wallet. It can, however, demolish storage space, so you'll want to start a collection before entering into a committed relationship. If you already have a significant other, you'll need to start small and work your way up. And apologize frequently.

You might also want to consider a good FM tuner. I use mine a lot and love it to pieces. Magnum Dynalab makes some nice ones and I run a vintage H.H. Scott that is entirely tubed and also decodes stereo. There were a few all-tube tuners released in the early 1960s - wonderful if you're interested in that sort of thing.

 

[hodgjy]

Hi Uncle Erik,
 
Thanks for the very detailed and thoughtful response.  A lot of what you said hit home.
 
I would be using the CD player as a transport to the DAC.  And, there's really nothing I don't like about the player--I just don't know how it compares to other components.  I find it detailed, but curiosity just gets the best of me, and as you correctly said, sometimes just the itch to buy something new.  I have a decent CD collection, and I plan on playing the CDs as they are.  No plans to rip lossless to a computer.  I did rip my CDs in lossy format for my iPod, but that is working out and not critical listening at home.  So, no plans for a computer-based audio system.
 
I've had a lot of fun rolling tubes in my amp, and I can easily tell different sound between the tubes.  So, that got me thinking, since there are better tubes and lesser tubes, then it's possible there are better DACs and lesser DACs with respect to how they might "roll" into my system.  I'm not at all disappointed in the cd player.  Just curiosity in playing with different parts of the chain and having more toys, so to speak.  I don't know if it's possible to get everything to sound "better" than what I currently have for a modest upgrade price.  Curiosity, impatience, restlessness.....you know, all of the symptoms of the music disease.

 
Thanks for your insights.  I'll be following this thread closely (if others chime in with any info about my current source).  It would be dumb to buy a DAC if the onboard one I already have is pretty good....but, I wouldn't mind spending a little to upgrade a little if it's possible.
 

 

[SanJoseCanJunkie]

You would probably benefit more from a higher-grade amp or adding a different character set of headphones.

 

[Choronzon]

I can't see putting the money into a DAC if you have no plans to play music from a computer, or from whatever transport that'll feed a higher-resolution source.  If you *just* need to experiment "for a change", I'd recommend getting a better CD player, one with a particularly good transport in case you eventually want get an external DAC computer-source.  (Think Tascam, e.g., for a top-transport that is also in the meantime still an excellent CD player).  But seriously, that's future-think. If you're really wanting to experiment, I'm with SanJoseCanJunkie with recommending a higher-grade amp or phones. I'd lean more heavily on the headphones, too.
 
I understand "source-first" thinking, but since you're trying to play only CDs, I'd stick with the source you have or get a *great* cd player. 

 

[SanJoseCanJunkie]

I agree with you - probably higher priority for headphones over amp.

 

[hodgjy]

Thanks for the input, everyone.  I guess I'll probably stick with my current source and not upgrade the DAC.  Seeing as how I just bought my amp and cans about a month ago as my first entry into "better" gear, I'm content with not upgrading those for quite some time.  They were a good chunk of change for me at the time.
 
I listened to AAC files on my iPod for years with cheap cans.  I'm loving my new setup--I was just curious about tweaking it a little--mainly because all of the talk about DACs around here.  So, unless someone with experience using my Teac source chimes in and emphatically tells me it significantly benefits from an external DAC, I'm content with my setup.
 
Thanks.

 

[Choronzon]

Well... forgive me if this is obvious, but: a cd player is just a transport and a DAC in one case.  I don't know how good the Teac is -- but if you want to upgrade a DAC, then upgrade the CD player might make sense. THe external DAC idea only makes sense if you want to play something other than CDs. (I know this is obvious, and the advice already given, but just to take some of the mystery out of DACs, you have one in your CD player!)

 

[hodgjy]

I hear ya---I know the Teac CD player has a DAC in it.

  I'm just not sure how "good" it is.  It's definitely not terrible, as I've heard some pretty bad ones--like the one in my car stereo!!  I'm finding that I am really listening to music very analytically now--so I was just curious if I could extract more detail and soundstage from my CDs without breaking the bank.  I don't plan to ever buy a $1000 CD player.  But, I've read reports here in the forums that the V-DAC can do wonders with consumer-level CD players (the Teac was $229 new two years ago--but I got it for $99 NIB this summer).  I wouldn't mind spending $300 to get some more detail and soundstage, but I'm not interested in investing in a whole new CD player as the law of diminishing returns quickly kicks in.

 

[nycbone]

I use that very CD player with a V-DAC and find the improvement to be substantial (see sig for other gear in the chain). Better definition and clarity, particularly with acoustic instruments on jazz recordings. My reference recordings sound better than ever. The external DAC is the single best improvement I've made. My wallet for gear is now closed. I also appreciate the USB connection as I listen to Grateful Dead and other recordings from the live music archive (with a Dell netbook) and they sound terrific (i.e., subject to the quality of the recording).

 

[Nada]

 
Quote:

   I use that very CD player with a V-DAC and find the improvement to be substantial

This post displays the value of getting good data.
 
As far as theory goes I have leraned to appreciate the idea that the quality of the source is pivotal in a system, as it will affect everything downstream.

 

[hodgjy]

Thank you!  I'm very happy to hear from someone who uses a similar rig.  This was exactly the type of information I was looking for.
 
Since you're pushing the signal through a tube amp, how do you think the V-DAC synergizes with it?  I've read some reports that the V-DAC is warm sounding, so how does that mesh through a tube amp?  Can it ever sound too warm?
 
Thanks.
 

 
Quote:

I use that very CD player with a V-DAC and find the improvement to be substantial (see sig for other gear in the chain). Better definition and clarity, particularly with acoustic instruments on jazz recordings. My reference recordings sound better than ever. The external DAC is the single best improvement I've made. My wallet for gear is now closed. I also appreciate the USB connection as I listen to Grateful Dead and other recordings from the live music archive (with a Dell netbook) and they sound terrific (i.e., subject to the quality of the recording).

 

[gsilver]

I recently got a DAC Magic, and hooked it up to my CD/DVD player, a Sony NS-975V. My amp allows instant switching between analog sources, so I've been A/B'ing between the two sources, and honestly, I can't tell the difference (same volume, same sound signature, same fine detail in my Jazz cds). Granted, I've been pretty impressed with the player's CD capabilities.
 
For my setup, it wasn't a worthwhile upgrade over the CD player, but it makes up for it by allowing things like letting me use the Ipod as a transport (with the ND-S1 dock), as well as (eventually) getting a Squeezebox to stream 24-bit audio from my computer.

 

[nycbone]

I had the LD amp (still with stock tubes) with the SR125i and was pretty happy with that combination before adding the V-DAC. The tube amp added warmth that was missing with a Headroom Micro amp and the SR125i which sounded very dry, both with the Teac CD player and a Marantz CD5001. I purchased the V-DAC based on reviews here and elsewere (e.g., Amazon) and didn't listen to other DACs.
 
I wouldn't say that the V-DAC adds additional warmth. Enhanced detail of individual instruments is this biggest improvement for me. Percussion also sounds snappier and bass instruments are tight (not at all heavy, which I wouldn't appreciate).
 
Of course this is all so subjective... and certaintly doesn't quality as data... but...
 
This is best CD-based setup that I've had (and being a budget-fi kind of guy, I've had a few), I spend more quality time listening and I enjoy it more. And now that I'm done buying equipment, I can spend my hard-earned cash building my music collection.

 
edit:
UncleErik gave some great advice re: turntables. I typically buy new (to me) music on CDs so that I can rip them for use on my ipod while commuting, but finding those hidden gems in the used record or thrift shop makes the hobby that much more fun.
 
Just for laughs, I'm listening to The Stooges Funhouse on 180g LP (found it cheap at J&R) and CD while switching headphones (see chain for each below). The LP sounds better, even with the KSC75s. I call 'em like I hear 'em.

 
 
 
 

 
 
Quote:

Thank you!  I'm very happy to hear from someone who uses a similar rig.  This was exactly the type of information I was looking for.
 
Since you're pushing the signal through a tube amp, how do you think the V-DAC synergizes with it?  I've read some reports that the V-DAC is warm sounding, so how does that mesh through a tube amp?  Can it ever sound too warm?
 
Thanks.
 

 

 

 

[hodgjy]

I appreciate everyone's input on this question.  I think I'm not going to get a DAC.  The cd player is good enough for me.  Maybe the DAC will make it better, but then the law of diminishing returns kicks in.  Is the DAC $300 better?  Maybe, but maybe not.  I decided to blow some cash today and ordered some different tubes to roll in and experiment with.
 
Maybe someday down the road, I'll play with the idea of DAC again, but for now, I'm going to sit tight.
 
Thanks again to everyone.