[Aman]

... that IS the question.

I have been on a very long struggle to find good speakers. I had almost made the final decision to purchase some Ohm Microwalsh speakers but then found that my beloved amp is probably not idealy powered to drive them.

My amp does a steady 15 watts into 8 ohms, which is weak, but it's a beautiful sound and vocals in particular are done in a very rich tone. I would like to keep it until I can afford a significantly better integrated amplifier. I would also like to explore the world of tubes.

So it occured to me: why not go with a speaker that does not contain a crossover? Why not go with a single-driver, efficient speaker?

The two things that I value most in my audio experience are clarity and midrange/vocal reproduction. Air/soundstage are nice extras. Bass needs to be there, but I'm not in heavy demand. Highs - well, I just don't want them shrill or too bright.

I was wondering if these are characteristics that one could find in an Omega Loudspeaker? I am asking because the trip to demo a pair would be a bit substantial, so I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't wasting a complete day.

If you guys don't know my musical tastes by now, here they are:

Rock (mostly classic rock and art/prog rock -- meaning the sound can become somewhat complex)

Jazz (I'm hugely into fusion music, but also a fan of Coltrane, Miles, Guy Lambardo, Glenn Miller, etc. -- this is where I love the strength of good clarity.)

Blues (So here the vocal purity would be nice)

And among other things, but that's essentially the top 3.

So... are Omega's worth the trip?

Thank you guys! I appreciate all the help!

 

[bundee1]

See if you can find a used pair of JM Labs Chorus 706 speakers. This is not the "S" version, these are the original Stereophile Class D speakers. 89db 8ohm sensitivity so your 15 watts should be pretty loud. These are hard to find because people keep them. Im running mine with a 25watt Class A amp and they get pretty loud in 12' x 18' open ended room.

 

[Aman]

Do you really feel it proper recommending one speaker instead of an entire brand?

Nevertheless, I looked up JM Labs on Audiogon and only found a chorus 715 -- is that better?

And, do you think that the JM Labs Chorus speakers are similar to the characteristics that I specified as being desirable?

Thank you for your quick response, by the way!

EDIT: Erm, oh yeah - I forgot to mention that I'd rather buy new rather than used... this is more of a thread about Omega, and not about high-efficiency speaker choices. Thanks!

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

I say go give them a listen especially if purity of midrange is important to you. If they have enough treble extension to meet your needs you can always add a nice tight subwoofer later.
I know people that swear by crossover-less single-driver systems, with tube amplification, and would not even consider purchasing anything else.
If everybody was looking for the same thing there would only be one, or two manufactures in the audio business.

 

[Wodgy]

I used to own a pair of Marble nOrh 3.0s, which were single driver crossoverless designs. To be honest, I wouldn't really recommend them to anyone (except perhaps as office speakers, flanking either side of a computer monitor). They had the standard problems with crossoverless speakers: severe roll off of the highs off-axis, poor reproduction of the highs in general, uneven frequency response, inability to handle power, inability to reproduce deep bass.

The "crossoverless philosophy" sounds seductive -- that's why I originally got the nOrhs. But I've come to realize that it's mostly dime-store audiophile "philosophy", the kind of thing that gets hyped way beyond the reality. Physics imposes restrictions on real-world speaker designs, and single driver crossoverless designs just simply can't perform very well.

Single driver designs will always have an uneven frequency response unless a crossover is added. They will always have a severe high-frequency roll-off off axis, so it's not very much fun to listen unless you're in the sweet spot. They will always have doppler distortion when they're trying to play bass (large excursion) and highs (small excursion). That's just physics.

You almost never see measurements of single driver crossoverless speakers, because they universally suck. One of the rare exceptions was Stereophile's review of the Moth Cicadas, which use a very expensive Fostex driver, and sure enough, the measurements are terrible.

I'm not one to hype measurements. I prefer tube gear to solid state, generally, etc. However, with speakers, when you have a +10dB peak or a -7dB valley right smack dab in the upper midrange, it will be audible. There's just no way around serious problems like this. Huge swings in the frequency response also tend to make speakers sound fatiguing or distant on certain recordings.

I haven't heard the Omegas, and like anything else, they're worth an audition. But I doubt you'd be happy with something like this long term. If you really want a single driver speaker, consider building one with a simple crossover that gives decent measurements, like this:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker18.html
Even the designer of that speaker emphasizes that you need an active external crossover to cut away everything below 100 Hz (removing doppler and power distortion) otherwise they'll tend to sound bad. That's just the way single driver speakers are. But for the price, that design is definitely not bad. Some of the commercial crossoverless single-driver designs are just ludicrously priced for what you get.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Quote:

I used to own a pair of Marble nOrh 3.0s

Yeah, I remember. You declared your self an authority on the rest of the entire Norh speaker line by saying they all suck, although the only Norh speakers you have ever heard were the 3.0s.

Quote:

The "crossoverless philosophy" sounds seductive -- that's why I originally got the nOrhs. But I've come to realize that it's mostly dime-store audiophile "philosophy", the kind of thing that gets hyped way beyond the reality

Wodgy’s law: If Wodgy doesn’t like it, and someone else does, his or her opinion is nothing but hype.

There are times you can be as bad as the Stax clan.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy Single driver designs will always have an uneven frequency response unless a crossover is added. They will always have a severe high-frequency roll-off off axis, so it's not very much fun to listen unless you're in the sweet spot. They will always have doppler distortion when they're trying to play bass (large excursion) and highs (small excursion). That's just physics. You almost never see measurements of single driver crossoverless speakers, because they universally suck.

True, unfortunately. What's especially annoying is the heavy resonances throughout the spectrum and a generally miserable decay behavior. The high-frequency roll-off off axis also causes a dry and grainy sound in the sweet spot because of the reduced reflected sound in the treble area. And I haven't met a fullrange driver with passably even frequency response, so a crossover network for passive equalizing is necessary in any event, which represents an adulteration of the one-way concept. However, there's one driver with astonishingly flat frequency response after relatively simple passive midrange equalization and excellent decay spectrum, even in absolute measures: Vifa 10 BGS 119/8. The high-frequency dispersion is not much better than with other fullrange drivers though. And it's only available as a driver for DIY, not as complete speaker.

I use homegrown fullrange speakers with heavily (passively) equalized Fostex FE103Σ as computer speakers. They sounded nice and special in my main setup, but couldn't really compete with a sophisticated two-way concept in terms of naturalness, clarity, resolution, spaciousness, unfatiguingness and bass.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRESCENDOPOWER Yeah, I remember. You declared your self an authority on the rest of the entire Norh speaker line by saying they all suck, although the only Norh speakers you have ever heard were the 3.0s.

Dude, what's with the personal attacks? No wonder I hardly ever post here any more.

I have personal experience with the nOrh 3.0s. Didn't like them.

As for the rest of the nOrh lineup, I've based previous comments on measurements of their flagship speakers, the nOrh 9.0s, retailing for $3000 (in marble). Compare this this set of measurements with this. One of those graphs is from the White Van speakers, the other graph is from the nOrh 9.0s. Can you tell which is which without looking at the URLs?

When a company charges $3000 for a pair of speakers, I expect them to measure noticeably better than speakers sold out of the back of a white van.

I'm sure some nOrh speakers are better than others, and I have never made negative comments about the entire nOrh lineup. But I'd never tell a friend to buy nOrh without a long audition first. I've been burnt once by them personally, and others have been burnt with the 9.0s.

Quote:

Wodgy’s law: If Wodgy doesn’t like it, and someone else does, his or her opinion is nothing but hype.

Huh? If people like how a speaker sounds it's their business. All I was trying to say is that there's physics and there's philosophy. I bought into the philosophy myself -- the idea that a single driver crossoverless speaker would sound great because there's nothing in the way, the ultimate Zen system -- until I tried a single driver crossoverless system and was disappointed by how colored and muddy it sounded. Then I started reading about loudspeaker design, and I learned that physics dictates that single driver crossoverless systems have very serious limitations. John Krutke sums them up pretty well here:
"I'm not a big fan of full range drivers. You'll never find me running larger full range drivers because I think they generally have too many problems that degrade the sound. But the 3" wide range is another story - they are large enough to blend well with a subwoofer, but small enough to have high frequency extension and off axis response that doesn't stink. 2" drivers are too small, with poor low end extension, distortion and power handling problems. With those you end up with the typical "Blose" sound - no midbass, and a sub that's easily locatable due to a crossover that is too high. 4" or larger drivers can integrate well with a sub, but lack high frequency resolution, have terrible off axis response and have breakup nodes too low in frequency."

I'm sorry if I generally sound too critical when talking about speakers, but I've gone through more speakers than headphones at this point, and I've learned first hand that obvious colorations really tend to be bothersome after a while. Aman asked for opinions of single driver crossoverless speakers, and I put in my two cents. This would be a boring forum if everyone was a fanboy of everything.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Quote:

Dude, what's with the personal attacks? No wonder I hardly ever post here any more.

That wasn’t a personal attack that was the truth. You can’t judge an audio product by merely looking at a bunch of specifications.
And, as for single cone/crossover less speakers, when they executed correctly, they are some of the most uncolored speakers you will ever hear especially the transparency in the midrange.

 

[tennisets]

To bring this thread back on track, I suggest you go give them a listen. From what other people have said about Lewis' new speakers, and how highly rated the older ones were, they sound like something you might really like.

"What new speakers," you might ask. Lewis has not updated his website in quite some time, but he has been very busy indeed. He is working on producing hemp drivers, built to his own specifications and developed by him, to go in his speakers. There is an 8" which I think is ready now, and the 4" is either ready or darn close. These drivers are supposed to have a commendably flat frequency response (especially for a single driver) and sound much, much better than the Fostex drivers. For more information check the Omega Forum at The Audio Circle. The new speakers are supposed to be out this month.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRESCENDOPOWER And, as for single cone/crossover less speakers, when they executed correctly, they are some of the most uncolored speakers you will ever hear especially the transparency in the midrange.

I don't agree on the «transparency», but the midrange can indeed have a magic quality, an immediacy and intimacy hard to achieve with multiway speakers. Your restriction to single-cone speakers makes sence, since it's definitely impossible to build non-coloring (and non-phase-distorting) dual-cone fullrange speakers. Nevertheless, treble reproduction and dispersion seems to be the greatest problem and in fact unsolvable with fullrange speakers, even the most sophisticated ones such as the Mangers. But I don't deny that the one-way concept has its (sonic) charm.

 

[Asterix]

First off, Louis is the nicest and most helpful professional audio dealer I have ever met. For one thing, I own the Minuets, and I accidently blew a driver playing the speakers too loud and he is replacing it for free. Although my hi-fi experience is limited, I've never heard a speaker that I enjoyed more. These speakers play quite loud, and sound much bigger than they are. It's possible the frequency spectrum might seem to be tipped slightly towards the highs, so the overall presentation is not dark, like my last speakers were, although this probably has something to do with my amp, too. To me, the sound is extremely easy to listen to, and is uninhibited when it comes to expressing inner level details in the music. The drivers are very lightweight (I understand?) so the response is very quick, that's why it captures the movement and energy of the music so well, because it does not slur or muffle the sound. The real heart of the sound with these speakers is in the mids, though, kind of like a tube amp, so the mids seem very big and warm. The highs are definately very good too, though. The bass is sufficient for me (with the speakers properly positioned.) although if it would extend a tad lower that would be even better. (I would not recommend these speakers for rap or hip hop because of the bass.) They are an excellent rock, jazz, and maybe classical speaker, imo (but think flute quartet vs. complete orchestra.) I have tried these speakers out with 3 vintage amps now and I have a feeling that would do well with yours, Aman. The warm sound and low power of the good vintage gear seems to match with these speakers. My Luxman and my friends Sanyo and Akai all sounded great with these speakers, and on the solid state Sanyo (70's vintage) we could turn the volume on maximum with no distortion, due to the correct power matching I guess. He played a wide variety of records, from Metallica to some Bach Guitar solos, and each time the speakers were able to reproduce a very life-like and enjoyable sound, full of detail and nuance. They do not do instrumentation seperation so well when there are lots of instruments, like in big band or orchestral stuff for example, when they are all playing together it might seem a little bit mixed together, but it always sounds great nonetheless. As far as frequency response, besides what I have mentioned, it seems pretty even. After hearing these speakers, I am sold on the crossoverless idea. I don't plan on ever going back to speakers with crossovers, as my feelings stand now.

These speakers make my old Vandersteen 1C's (with crossover) seem like consumer grade crap, although they can be very good on the right system, the Vandies just don't compare to the Minuets when it comes to revealing the life of the music.

If you're going to audition these, I recommend you find some music that is light on the instrumentation, preferably has vocals, is preferably all-acoustic, and then play it LOUD (I think these speakers like to be played loud.) I think you'll be quite impressed. It's not that they don't do well with other kinds of music, but you have to hear how these speakers do it the simpler acoustic stuff, it's simply amazing.

Now if I could just stop blasting the music so much, my neighbors are starting to get annoyed.

EDIT: I just noticed your amp is 15watts/channel - mine is 35, and those are tube watts, so I'm not sure if the Minuets would be the right model for you. Anyway, the above post hopefully gives you an idea of my experiences with the Omega Minuets and my 35 watt tube amp. I have not heard any other Omegas, although according to Louis the Minuets have better bass than the Grande 6 (6R?), and they are also more forgiving with solid-state gear.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterix If you're going to audition these, I recommend you find some music that is light on the instrumentation, preferably has vocals, is preferably all-acoustic, and then play it LOUD (I think these speakers like to be played loud.) I think you'll be quite impressed.

My advice is the opposite. If you're going to audition these, bring music that exposes their likely flaws: large-scale symphonies, non-acoustic rock, complicated progressive rock or fusion, etc. Simple all acoustic music, flute quartets, Diana Krall-style music, etc. is just too easy to reproduce and will not spotlight just how muddy most (all?) single-driver systems can get when asked to reproduce anything complicated.

If ultimate midrange magic is your goal, consider three-way speakers with a dedicated midrange driver (either a dome or a cone). These keep the midrange pure -- they keep crossover out of the midrange and prevent lows or highs from causing midrange distortion, unlike single-driver systems -- and they can offer the dynamics and bass that add an important dimension of fun to music.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman ...I looked up JM Labs on Audiogon and only found a chorus 715...

On an almost unrelated note: you kind of have to play with the search -- try all combinations of "jmlabs" "jmlab" "jm lab" "jm labs".

Carry on.

 

[Aman]

So essentially, the only way for me to get what I want would be to get speakers that aren't highly-sensitive?

The problem with that is that I would need to get an amp as well, and factor that into my budget!

I think I will go over to Louis' place soon and check out the speakers and see what I have to offer. Wodgy does have some good points about complexity bogging down and kind of coloring the sound -- even more-so because I have a tendancy to listen to that kind of music. Though, I am a very big jazz fan and blues, and this music isn't nearly as complex as orchestral music or progressive rock.

I think I know the music that I will bring:

My favorite music.

It isn't fair to bring music that exposes their flaws, or exposes their strengths. That's not fair at all! I'd rather just bring the music I enjoy the most and see if the speakers reproduce it faithful to the music and to my tastes.

I'd probably bring my DCC Morrison Hotel 200gram, my EMI DSotM 180gram, my Classic Records Zep II 200gram, and my Kind of Blue 1st Pressing.

If they do this well -- then good. If they don't, then back to the drawing boards for me