[Prog Rock Man]

Lots have people have been certain that they would pass a DBT and have then gone on to fail. Using other senses as well as hearing and then cables are easy to tell apart.
 
In any case this thread is about the elephant in the room, which so far is continuing to be ignored.

 

[TheAttorney]

Prog Rock Man, the elephant in the room is indeed the mind.
 
But whereas most pro-cablers generally accept there is the possibility that the mind could be affecting their judgment (placebo etc), it's a shame that the anti crowd seem to unquestioningly dismiss the possible negative affects on the mind by formal tests like DBT. That, I feel, is the real elephant in the room. Or an elephant at least as big as the one you're thinking of.
 
What really puzzles me is why you keep bringing such topics up so unrelentingly, when it's been done to death so many times before. Just have a rest for a while... it really isn't that important.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

I find the topic of bad science and the rise of belief in strange things very interesting. I have been reading extensively on the subject with the best books being
 

 
We have the best, most knowing and correct scientific community ever, yet it is being attacked relentlessly by psydo drivel that has created a huge industry for its self.
 
I also find the topic of hifi very interesting and the community around it tends to be well educated and reasonable people.
 
My work is in the legal system and my degree is in Modern History with International Relations. I have always had to evidence what I do.
 
Combine all of that and you hopefully understand my curiosity to gather evidence about a part of the hifi industry and ask why do people believe in something that is contrary to what science has to say.

 

[blockhead]

Quote:

...unquestioningly dismiss the possible negative affects on the mind by formal tests like DBT. 

Besides the huge assumption you are making about the "anti crowd" , what do you mean by this? I would question it if I understood what you meant.
 

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Prog Rock Man, the elephant in the room is indeed the mind.
 
But whereas most pro-cablers generally accept there is the possibility that the mind could be affecting their judgment (placebo etc), it's a shame that the anti crowd seem to unquestioningly dismiss the possible negative affects on the mind by formal tests like DBT.
 
As a skeptic rather than anti-cable person I just have not seen good evidence for the normally extremely small measured differences between "normal cables" being audible and have both measured and blind tested numerous cables myself, of course it would be trivial to make a "cable" audibly different , but to do so you would be making a cable that by an engineering standpoint was fundamentally broken, like the wondrous "light" cables that Stereophile tested a few years ago.
 
As for DBTs and stress, I personally like DBTs, I find them fun and I pass some and fail others depending on the match between my hearing capabilities as a 52 year old and the magnitude of the differences. As someone with multiple degrees in Psychology (Psychology undergraduate degree, and Occupational Psychology M.Sc inc Psychophysics and Psychometrics) a *little* bit of stress is no big deal, in fact it often increases performance, it is hardly the stress of being on Mastermind or being interviewed for a job and certainly most reports of these formal tests show that  "audible-difference-believers" who enter these types of test often do so with extreme confidence in their abilities.
 
That, I feel, is the real elephant in the room. Or an elephant at least as big as the one you're thinking of.
 
What really puzzles me is why you keep bringing such topics up so unrelentingly, when it's been done to death so many times before. Just have a rest for a while... it really isn't that important.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Off topic we go, but what are the negative effects on the mind of DBTs?
 
I accept that I can talk myself out of hearing a difference between cables, in that I no longer talk myself into believing that there is one. But I do not see that as a negative. I see it as accepting the reality of what cables can and cannot do.

 

[Antony6555]

@NickCharles
 
I think you make a very good point that stress can actually improve results, ie often people will try harder under a bit of pressure, and it can also cause them to focus.
 

 

[TheAttorney]

Quote:

Besides the huge assumption you are making about the "anti crowd" , what do you mean by this? I would question it if I understood what you meant.
 

Quote:

Off topic we go, but what are the negative effects on the mind of DBTs?

No I shan't play! Just too many threads on this that achieved little. Oh alright then, just one analogy example from the Wine Lovers thread that Prog Rock Man didn't respond to at the time:
Where whisky lovers couldn't tell the difference between Single Malt and Blended in a DBT. Nevermind the more puzzling one where they couldn't even tell the difference between whisky and cognac.

 

 

[Cataphract]

Quote:

No I shan't play! Just too many threads on this that achieved little. Oh alright then, just one analogy example from the Wine Lovers thread that Prog Rock Man didn't respond to at the time:
Where whisky lovers couldn't tell the difference between Single Malt and Blended in a DBT. Nevermind the more puzzling one where they couldn't even tell the difference between whisky and cognac.

 

Except there have also been DBTs establishing differences between different brands of whisky, as well as between brands of vodka, so the DBTs you mention merely suggest that those particular testers could not tell the difference. However, both the theory behind cables and exhaustive DBT have never been able to suggest an audible difference between lamp cord and audiophile cable.

 

[TheAttorney]

 
Quote:

As a skeptic rather than anti-cable person I just have not seen good evidence for the normally extremely small measured differences between "normal cables" being audible and have both measured and blind tested numerous cables myself, of course it would be trivial to make a "cable" audibly different , but to do so you would be making a cable that by an engineering standpoint was fundamentally broken, like the wondrous "light" cables that Stereophile tested a few years ago.
 
As for DBTs and stress, I personally like DBTs, I find them fun and I pass some and fail others depending on the match between my hearing capabilities as a 52 year old and the magnitude of the differences. As someone with multiple degrees in Psychology (Psychology undergraduate degree, and Occupational Psychology M.Sc inc Psychophysics and Psychometrics) a *little* bit of stress is no big deal, in fact it often increases performance, it is hardly the stress of being on Mastermind or being interviewed for a job and certainly most reports of these formal tests show that  "audible-difference-believers" who enter these types of test often do so with extreme confidence in their abilities.

I think the mind issues with DBT (or any formal tests of neutral sounding components) goes well beyond stress. This is just based on my own experience - I've never claimed to have the time, inclination or skills to delve into this more scientifically. However, I think that stress does compound the issue. And just because someone isn't experiencing obvious anxiousness doesn't mean that they're not being affected (is that enough double negatives already?).
 
The over confidence of some audiophiles (and wine lovers etc) is due to naivety on the pitfalls of DBT and placebo. The fact that so many fail may mean that they were deluding themselves in the first place, or it may be the millionth example of why DBTs are rubbish in some situations. One thing affecting this is the "night-and-day" conundrum. How one can have a genuine night-and-day experience on something that is objectively a tiny difference? Herein lies the crux of the debate. 

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

No I shan't play! Just too many threads on this that achieved little. Oh alright then, just one analogy example from the Wine Lovers thread that Prog Rock Man didn't respond to at the time:
Where whisky lovers couldn't tell the difference between Single Malt and Blended in a DBT. Nevermind the more puzzling one where they couldn't even tell the difference between whisky and cognac.

 

 
If we stick to case studies that are relevant to the topic i.e audio rather than getting diverted, there are several DBT passes we can see, many here have managed DBT passes on differences in codecs (lossy vs lossless) (high bit rate vs low bit rate) plus other sites such as the hairshirt objectivist Hydrogen Audio. There are also positive DBTs on the web between different Amps and different CD players (on David Clark's site)
 
If Stress ruins performance we should never get any DBT passes, but we do, frequently. What we do not get is DBT passes when the differences are really really small i.e below the threshold for detection, such as normal analog cables, to date.

 

[TheAttorney]

Quote:

Except there have also been DBTs establishing differences between different brands of whisky, as well as between brands of vodka, so the DBTs you mention merely suggest that those particular testers could not tell the difference. However, both the theory behind cables and exhaustive DBT have never been able to suggest an audible difference between lamp cord and audiophile cable.

And my point is that you are not seeing the other elephant in the room. You automatically assume that the fault of a test, that goes against your opinion, was with the participants and not with the DBT.
I'm not saying that DBTs are unable to tell neutral components appart - just that they're unreliable. And I'd say that different cables are more "neutral" than different brands of whisky and so the unreliability will dramatically increase.

 

[TheAttorney]

Quote:

If we stick to case studies that are relevant to the topic i.e audio rather than getting diverted, there are several DBT passes we can see, many here have managed DBT passes on differences in codecs (lossy vs lossless) (high bit rate vs low bit rate) plus other sites such as the hairshirt objectivist Hydrogen Audio. There are also positive DBTs on the web between different Amps and different CD players (on David Clark's site)
 
If Stress ruins performance we should never get any DBT passes, but we do, frequently. What we do not get is DBT passes when the differences are really really small i.e below the threshold for detection, such as normal analog cables, to date.

Good points. Agreed that some sound tests are much easier to pass than others. Frequency differences especially. I think cable differences are objectively very small in comparison and I can't explain (without everyone laughing) why some can not only hear them, but also consider that the improvement to our emotional response to the music is worth the effort. Time and time again. 

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

 
I think the mind issues with DBT (or any formal tests of neutral sounding components) goes well beyond stress. This is just based on my own experience - I've never claimed to have the time, inclination or skills to delve into this more scientifically.
 
I think if you raise "possible negative affects(sic)  on the mind by formal tests like DBT" and then say it is not just stress it is for you to enumerate these possible effects so that they can be debated. To say I could not do it so some unspecified factor must be to blame just begs more questions.
 
 
However, I think that stress does compound the issue. And just because someone isn't experiencing obvious anxiousness doesn't mean that they're not being affected (is that enough double negatives already?).
 
The over confidence of some audiophiles (and wine lovers etc) is due to naivety on the pitfalls of DBT and placebo.
 
Beg pardon ? - Do you mean they are overconfident because they are unaware of the (unspecified) pitfalls of DBT and unaware of the existence or influence of placbo (by which we really mean expectancy effects)
 
The fact that so many fail may mean that they were deluding themselves in the first place,
 
A possibility certainly
 
 
or it may be the millionth example of why DBTs are rubbish in some situations.
 
You still need to give much more detail on why and preferably some citations
 
 
One thing affecting this is the "night-and-day" conundrum. How one can have a genuine night-and-day experience on something that is objectively a tiny difference? Herein lies the crux of the debate. 
 
If the difference is actually audible in the first place then it is just something becoming bigger in our minds, one can mistake a small volume difference for better quality. If the difference is not actually audible then it is imagination.

 

[Mkubota1]

Quote:Originally Posted by nick_charles 
As a skeptic rather than anti-cable person I just have not seen good evidence for the normally extremely small measured differences between "normal cables" being audible and have both measured and blind tested numerous cables myself
 
The difference between a skeptic and an anti-cable person is the skeptic will believe ANYTHING if you can just rationally prove it.
 
The argument goes something like this:  "You can't measure everything so we throw that out.  And you can't test with humans because any such testing is subject to 'stress', unnatural listening conditions, etc.  So basically you just have to take our word for it."

In the world of wine there is a title called Master of Wine (MW).  These guys and gals are required to taste BLIND different wines and tell you what region the grapes were grown in, etc.  There are only 280 MWs in the world- only 5 or so in the US last time I checked.  My guess is that the number of people who can actually hear differences in things like cable are in similar numbers.  And I don't hear these guys complaining that they taste things differently under the 'stress' of blind tasting.