[g_hause]

I'm thinking about stepping up from my x-can. Wanting the biggest possible improvement, I started looking at balanced amps/dacs. But I have some questons.

I'm currently considering the Benchmark dac1 the grace m901 or the RSA Apache. In the 1-2.5 k range, am I missing anything?

So, Can I run an ipod off the usb inputs of the dacs or do I need a pc?

I don't have a balanced source, bow big an issue is this?

Thanks.

 

[PFKMan23]

A couple of things first, the Benchmark and the Grace are sources (that also allow you to use your cans in some way). And no you can't use a dac with a USB input from the Ipod.

The Apache is an amp only, but new it is $3000. Unless you are lined up to get one used you might want to keep that in mind. It does have a phase splitter, but if you really wan to see what balanced is about you also should get a proper source and a part of that is budgeting accordingly. IMO if you're not going to get a source that can run balacned, getting a balanced amp is silly. The only exception is if the source would be shortly thereafter. Keep in mind not all balanced amps use phase splitters to convert SE to balanced.

That said, if it was me I'd go source first, especially if you really are looking at something as pricey as an Apache.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Apache is an amp only, but new it is $3000. Unless you are lined up to get one used you might want to keep that in mind. It does have a phase splitter ...

where did you get this information from, about the phase splitter?

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif where did you get this information from, about the phase splitter?

If it accepts a single ended input and at the same time still outputs balanced drive for your headphones it would have to have a phase splitter to do so.

 

[vcoheda]

the Apache sounds noticeable better Bal to Bal than SE to Bal. so if you are going to spend over $2000 on a balanced amp, you should have a balanced source as well.

 

[shaizada]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif If it accepts a single ended input and at the same time still outputs balanced drive for your headphones it would have to have a phase splitter to do so.

Actually,

if you are using a single ended input on the Apache, it does put a signal to the balanced headphone output. However, the sound is still single ended. Its is NOT balanced.

But when you select the balance input switch, it is very obvious you are operating in a balanced drive. The volume almost doubles and the drivers seem to move more dynamically as it should when seeing an increase in the slew rate (pretty much double the slew rate).

If I understand correctly, a phase splitter can be used to

~G

 

[PFKMan23]

If that's the case then I did confuse it with another amp. However, until you buy a balanced source, then you're just wasting your money as its being run SE. In that case, you might as well just buy an HR-2 or an XP-7 which are Ray's SE solid state amps.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaizada /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, if you are using a single ended input on the Apache, it does put a signal to the balanced headphone output. However, the sound is still single ended. Its is NOT balanced.

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, according to you when you feed the Apache a single ended input it can only output a single ended signal. If that's the case then vcoheda is correct, the Apache would not need or have a phase splitter.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif then vcoheda is correct, the Apache would not need or have a phase splitter.

i never said it did or did not have a phase splitter. i don't know and that is why i asked. i am pretty sure - i am not at my apache now but almost positive - that you do get a signal through balanced headphones when the SE input is selected. does this mean it has a phase splitter or it just receives the SE input or is that the same thing or something else. i don't know. i recall reading the 6moons article on the HR desktop that there was not much of a difference (hardly any) when using the amp balanced through a SE source and this was due to the phase splitter. to me, if i recall, there was a noticeable improvement - and quite obvious to say the least - when using SE to Bal and Bal to Bal on the Apache with the latter being far better.

so this opens up a number of questions.

 

[shaizada]

Here is what I have seen with the Apache:

1) Apache is getting a fully balanced signal from the source and it is ALSO getting a singled ended connection from the same source.

2) With a set of balanced headphone plugged into the headphone out of the Apache, sound is pretty loud and VERY dynamic with the HD-650 and balanced Equinox. AT THE SAME VOLUME LEVEL, when I press the switch for the single ended input, there is still music playing but the sound has considerably decreased in volume and headphones close in a bit.

3) Now I use a singled ended Equinox cable into the Apache headphone out with the HD-650. Volume remains the same whether I choose the Balanced input or the Single Ended input. Nothing changes and actually sounds EXACTLY the same as when I used the balanced Equinox cable with the single ended input.

I don't know what that means with regards to a "phase splitter" but the benefits of Balanced are ONLY OBVIOUS when everything is fully balanced from the source to the amp to the headphones.

Hope that helps bring some clarification to the workings of the Apache.

Thanks!

~G

 

[vcoheda]

^^ yes. i agree with everything you said, but that still doesn't answer any questions with regard to a phase splitter.

 

[n_maher]

Here's how to tell if it has a phase splitter (short of asking Ray

): answer the question - if the Apache is being fed from a single ended source, and only a single ended source can it produce balanced drive for the headphones? If the answer is yes, then it must have some sort of phase splitting device to create the out-of-phase signal to complete the balanced drive. If the answer is no, then it does not have a phase splitter.

The complicated thing is that you can always get single ended outputs out of a balanced source or amp but the opposite is not true.

Hope that helps and sorry I misinterpreted your first reply as a statement vcoheda.

 

[shaizada]

If fed from a single ended source, it does NOT produce a balanced sound out from the headphones. There is music, but I am SURE that the headphones are not being fed a BALANCED signal.

So there is a signal, but it is definitely not balanced.

Maybe Ray can enlighten us if he reads this thread

~G

 

[jh4db536]

What headphones do you have?

If i were you, i would sell the x-can and acquire a used DAC1 (plenty on audiogon) or DA10 (more uncommon). Would probably use a computer with SPDIF/AES output.

These units are a DAC (very good source), headphone amp, preamp - all in 1 with both balanced and regular outputs. The balanced outputs on these units are superb. I didnt like the DAC1's headphone amplifier much (it's not bad), but the balanced preamp side is a completely different story. The DA10's built in headphone amp is supposedly in the same class as a gilmore lite. You could run balanced straight out of these units.

yeah it costs $800, but the best 800 i have spent after the headphones themselves. No regrets, i'd do everything over again the same way in a heartbeat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by g_hause /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm thinking about stepping up from my x-can. Wanting the biggest possible improvement, I started looking at balanced amps/dacs. But I have some questons. I'm currently considering the Benchmark dac1 the grace m901 or the RSA Apache. In the 1-2.5 k range, am I missing anything? So, Can I run an ipod off the usb inputs of the dacs or do I need a pc? I don't have a balanced source, bow big an issue is this? Thanks.

 

[Reticuli2]

Balanced? If you're using a short run, you don't need differential input amps and redundant signals. If you're talking about crosstalk in headphones with a shared ground, doesn't that only audibly affect headphones with low impedence?