[GoldenSound]

Thanks, I'll look at that thread.

I know there is at least a header variable that tells certain dumb devices like my Oppo 205 whether the file is MQA or not. You can use command line tools to set that. I tested an MQA file without the header setting, the Oppo didn't know it was MQA; I used the tool and set the variable and Oppo decoded it correctly. And this works for PCM or FLAC.

But I have other gear that can start playing MQA in the middle of a file and so it seems (but I'm not sure) that it doesn't need that header variable. That suggests either good MQA decoders don't need any help from flags, or that the flag is carried in each block.

MQA uses a couple different methods of telling a DAC that a file is MQA. And it depends on whether it is passing MQA through to the DAC itself, or if it is doing the first decode and then instructing the DAC do use the MQA filter for the 2nd/3rd unfold (which don't actually work in the same way as the first unfold and is effectively just a specific upsampling filter).
Often it uses more than one method just to ensure compatibility.

File metadata is one and this can be added manually or via some command line tools, but information within the audio itself is also used to tell a DAC that the stream is MQA, so that it can still work in situations where the player or DAC cannot be directly told that the file is MQA (or as you mentioned resuming playback from a file halfway through).

How this works is not public of course, but thanks to MQA using XMOS chips and the nature of running things on there it's possible to reverse engineer what is going on. For fun, here is a version of 'Nyan Cat' which your DAC should pick up as MQA as I've applied this signalling to it. (Your player may not though as players seem to sometimes rely ONLY on file metadata for detection). (I'm on my phone atm so this might be the wrong file actually but I think it's correct).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IBYFikcWtrIZgf0PRc7YRWmVTsS5Ta_F/view?usp=drivesdk

This signalling within the audio is also what allows software like roon to do EQ on MQA files and still have the DAC recognise it as MQA.
It does the first unfold, applies EQ, and then adds the MQA signalling back on top so that the DAC continues to recognise it as MQA. (I've not looked into how much adding EQ 'breaks' MQA processing actually but it could be interesting to look at)

The interesting thing with this signalling method is that it can cause issues with gapless playback due to not being instantly recognised, because the DAC will use its standard PCM processing/oversampling, suddenly detect that it's MQA and swap to the MQA oversampling filter, and when this happens during a track transition it can cause pauses/clicks/pops or other interruptions.
As a result of this, MQA has 'strongly encouraged' various manufacturers to use the MQA oversampling filter 100% of the time regardless of whether the audio being played is MQA or not. As this solves the gapless issue (but means you're not using a proper reconstruction filter for most content which is not great).
Lots of different devices from desktop stuff like the Topping D90 MQA to portable players like some of the Hiby ones all do this.

 

[The1Signature]

MQA uses a couple different methods of telling a DAC that a file is MQA. And it depends on whether it is passing MQA through to the DAC itself, or if it is doing the first decode and then instructing the DAC do use the MQA filter for the 2nd/3rd unfold (which don't actually work in the same way as the first unfold and is effectively just a specific upsampling filter).
Often it uses more than one method just to ensure compatibility.

File metadata is one and this can be added manually or via some command line tools, but information within the audio itself is also used to tell a DAC that the stream is MQA, so that it can still work in situations where the player or DAC cannot be directly told that the file is MQA (or as you mentioned resuming playback from a file halfway through).

How this works is not public of course, but thanks to MQA using XMOS chips and the nature of running things on there it's possible to reverse engineer what is going on. For fun, here is a version of 'Nyan Cat' which your DAC should pick up as MQA as I've applied this signalling to it. (Your player may not though as players seem to sometimes rely ONLY on file metadata for detection). (I'm on my phone atm so this might be the wrong file actually but I think it's correct).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IBYFikcWtrIZgf0PRc7YRWmVTsS5Ta_F/view?usp=drivesdk

This signalling within the audio is also what allows software like roon to do EQ on MQA files and still have the DAC recognise it as MQA.
It does the first unfold, applies EQ, and then adds the MQA signalling back on top so that the DAC continues to recognise it as MQA. (I've not looked into how much adding EQ 'breaks' MQA processing actually but it could be interesting to look at)

The interesting thing with this signalling method is that it can cause issues with gapless playback due to not being instantly recognised, because the DAC will use its standard PCM processing/oversampling, suddenly detect that it's MQA and swap to the MQA oversampling filter, and when this happens during a track transition it can cause pauses/clicks/pops or other interruptions.
As a result of this, MQA has 'strongly encouraged' various manufacturers to use the MQA oversampling filter 100% of the time regardless of whether the audio being played is MQA or not. As this solves the gapless issue (but means you're not using a proper reconstruction filter for most content which is not great).
Lots of different devices from desktop stuff like the Topping D90 MQA to portable players like some of the Hiby ones all do this.

i don't know why but this and many other insights from mqa gives be a better feeling when streaming / downloading / buying albums from qobuz, where it is just a clean flac, done.

 

[headfry]

...wow, so many posts here!

When I started this thread about 5 1/2 years ago I was really excited for MQA and enjoyed it a lot. In the past 6 months
I've switched to Apple Music as it now has hires and to my ears sounds about as good as Tidal, at much less cost.

AM does have Apple Spatial Audio using Dolby Atmos and while the Atmos catalogue is somewhat limited there
are some great albums, including classical (which I've been really getting into since procuring a Mojo 2 in Feb. !).
For me Apple Spatial Audio is a really interesting option! On the whole I listen to whatever music I like, whether it's Atmos
or not (most of it isn't but much of it in lossless quality), and I'm very happy with the service so far. This from a very particular audiophile.

Glad this thread has provided a lot of interest but at this point MQA is no longer relevant to me,
those still active here have fun!

 

[Left Channel]

I'm still subscribing to Tidal and Qobuz, endlessly comparing. I've no interest in the other on-demand music streaming services.

Have to admit though, I mostly just listen to four CD-quality FLAC streams from internet radio station Radio Paradise. They support MQA only for BlueOS at this time.

Also Soma FM just launched an HLS test version of one of their thirty-eight internet radio streams in lossless FLAC.

 

[Brain Damage]

I'm still subscribing to Tidal and Qobuz, endlessly comparing. I've no interest in the other on-demand music streaming services.

Have to admit though, I mostly just listen to four CD-quality FLAC streams from internet radio station Radio Paradise. They support MQA only for BlueOS at this time.

Also Soma FM just launched an HLS test version of one of their thirty-eight internet radio streams in lossless FLAC.

I also subscribe to both Qobuz and Tidal with no interest in any other streaming service. I always fluctuate between the two. I still can't say which I prefer - there are some Tidal Masters I think sound better than the Hi-Res Qobuz counterpart: equally, vice-versa applies in other circumstances. It is purely for this reason I keep both streaming services despite the miser in me wanting to cut my streaming outgoings. This is a hobby though and if music and audio quality mean that much, why not. Jury is still out on MQA. Keep loving the music folks

 

[PortableMusic]

i've subscribed to Tidal for the last 2 years and i love it. i have little basis for comparison because i am looking for the best sound with the largest music selection, including a robust classical selection (and of course the usual popular and jazz music selections).

like some here, i also use the BlueOS via the Node 2i. i didn't see the need or benefits (for me) to upgrade to the newer version of the Node 2i.

even though i'm a huge fan of Tidal, i do question the future viability of MQA. as bandwidth considerations are passé currently, what is the need going forward for MQA, i wonder?

i'm also concerned about whether or not Tidal can remain a profitable enterprise and stay in business. it's a good thing, i suppose, that Dorsey bought Tidal as he has deep pockets, but still, will he be ok with it losing money for many more years?

i'm not inclined to switch to another service UNLESS it has equally good sound quality AND depth of musical selections. i am not entirely happy with Tidal's classical selections, nor am i happy with Tidal's amateurish way of searching for classical music, artists, orchestras, etc. Still, all in all, it's enjoyable for me to use.

of course, i hope someone comes in and presents another superior option, but thus far, i see little reason for someone like me to switch.

 

[Maxpain]

Good morning,

I am reading all the way back of this thread...and I don't get if the zen stream supports first unfold through tidal connect anymore? Providing that someone has an mqa renderer dac like the zen dac signature (v.1)....if not...then the only way to get the first unfold with that gear is to use soon or tidal desktop app?

I also have found that tidal offers lots of mqa albums in 2 versions...one is mqa studio and other is mqa certified...with my gear (zen stream, zen dac) in almost all of the cases...the mqa certified sound quality was superior to the mqa studio..more open and clear...has anyone else had the same results?

 

[gimmeheadroom]

For a long while whenever the MQA version came out the Redbook version disappeared. But for the last year it seems the trend has reversed and now there are often multiple versions of the album as @Maxpain said. To me it is great to have a choice.

 

[Maxpain]

I know that some albums are offered in both Flac and mqa versions. What I don't understand is how can an album in mqa certified version sounds far better than the same album in mqa studio version. If its a different master version...shouldn't be stated? I think that Tidal should also state the sample rate on the album...roon does it..why not tidal app too?

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I know that some albums are offered in both Flac and mqa versions.

Hi, FLAC is just a container- everything on Tidal is PCM and the container doesn't matter.

What I don't understand is how can an album in mqa certified version sounds far better than the same album in mqa studio version. If its a different master version...shouldn't be stated? I think that Tidal should also state the sample rate on the album...roon does it..why not tidal app too?

According to this https://bobtalks.co.uk/blog/mqa-philosophy/mqa-authentication-and-quality/ the Studio version is what should sound better. I have not compared green and blue versions, when there are multiple versions I usually choose which one I play based on whether it's an expanded album or not (I prefer the originals).

The page also implies that indeed, Studio and green are most likely different masters.

I think that Tidal should also state the sample rate on the album...roon does it..why not tidal app too?

Well, I agree that it would be nice to show the sample rate and bit depth, but whether Roon does it or not is completely irrelevant.

I get the information from hardware, so I can see exactly what Tidal desktop or API is sending, and what it expands to.

We have asked in Bluesound forums for this info but Bluesound has ignored us for at least two years on this feature.

 

[Maxpain]

Hi, FLAC is just a container- everything on Tidal is PCM and the container doesn't matter.



According to this https://bobtalks.co.uk/blog/mqa-philosophy/mqa-authentication-and-quality/ the Studio version is what should sound better. I have not compared green and blue versions, when there are multiple versions I usually choose which one I play based on whether it's an expanded album or not (I prefer the originals).

The page also implies that indeed, Studio and green are most likely different masters.



Well, I agree that it would be nice to show the sample rate and bit depth, but whether Roon does it or not is completely irrelevant.

I get the information from hardware, so I can see exactly what Tidal desktop or API is sending, and what it expands to.

We have asked in Bluesound forums for this info but Bluesound has ignored us for at least two years on this feature.

What I mean is that there are both Flac (16/44) and mqa (24/96 etc) versions of the same album which is expected. There are also often 2 mqa versions of the same album. One mqa studio(blue) and one mqa certified (green). Now my gear (zen stream and zen dac signature version1) is not capable to fully decode mqa files with tidal connect.

I will give an example with an album Aretha Franklin "young, gifted and black''...there are 2 mqa versions....to my system...mqa green version sounds way better than the mqa studio...tidal does not have any indication that we are talking about different masters. In that case the studio version sounds noticeably worse...what I am trying to understand is this...

does this occurs cause my gear is not mqa capable so there is no point for me to be paying tidal master tier? or sometimes some albums studio versions are worse? As for the sample rate information...I don't use room cause it was too expensive for the use I intended to do...and ifi dac does not have any sample rate indication. I never had any blue sound device so far...in fact zen stream was my first streamer!

 

[gimmeheadroom]

What I mean is that there are both Flac (16/44) and mqa (24/96 etc) versions of the same album which is expected. There are also often 2 mqa versions of the same album. One mqa studio(blue) and one mqa certified (green). Now my gear (zen stream and zen dac signature version1) is not capable to fully decode mqa files with tidal connect.

I will give an example with an album Aretha Franklin "young, gifted and black''...there are 2 mqa versions....to my system...mqa green version sounds way better than the mqa studio...tidal does not have any indication that we are talking about different masters. In that case the studio version sounds noticeably worse...what I am trying to understand is this...

does this occurs cause my gear is not mqa capable so there is no point for me to be paying tidal master tier? or sometimes some albums studio versions are worse? As for the sample rate information...I don't use room cause it was too expensive for the use I intended to do...and ifi dac does not have any sample rate indication. I never had any blue sound device so far...in fact zen stream was my first streamer!

You mean there are Redbook and MQA versions. You cannot know if something on Tidal or any service is FLAC or not, and by the way, MQA can also be compressed with FLAC.

I cannot know why you hear a difference between Blue (Studio) and Green (MQA, but not studio) on your gear but the easiest explanation is that the two masters are different, and this is what the page I linked suggests. There is no other reason for multiple MQA versions. I don't think it has anything to do with your gear, perhaps you just like what you like. I think ifi has pointed out how you can get some tech. info from the LED colors, you could check upthread or contact ifi with your questions.

We have seen that Tidal content varies across regions, the last time we checked some Metallica albums, the guys in America had very few Masters and we had only Masters.

Agreed that Tidal and all streaming services should show the master information clearly. This does not seem to happen.

 

[peterinvan]

Agreed that Tidal and all streaming services should show the master information clearly. This does not seem to happen.

I would really like Tidal to include the provenance and sample rate of all the Masters albums (under the "info" button?). This should clearly inform us of the original source material (before "Masterizing").

 

[Maxpain]

I think that Tidal has a lot to benefit from giving info about the origin of the master of the album that's being streamed. It makes the user feeling closer to the music...like when you buy a cd or a digital copy. Room took advantage of that and did good.

For my situation..I care more about if my gear is capable (after the firmware update on the zen stream) to completely or partially decode mqa. I asked that ifi in another thread too but never got an answer as far as I remember.

So if someone from ifi keeps an eye on this thread I would appreciate an answer...

 

[EMINENT]

I have just started trialing Qobuz as my Tidal yearly sub is coming to an end in Oct.

So, I have noticed differences for sure. For those that say you can't hear a difference, it's important to disclose what you are listening/comparing with. Maybe what you are using isn't capable of exposing differences or the song isn't good at exposing, if you are using headphones or not, etc. So many variables.

So far a lot of breakbeat content I would like to have is missing on Qobuz which is a shame. On the flip side, I am not pleased with the inability to play standard, non MQA Flac on Tidal. The sonic differences could come down to preferences but for now content is winning as much as I don't like the deception.