Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)
Jun 12, 2015 at 7:24 PM Post #5,836 of 6,500
  Yes, I was basically talking about "current production chips". The TDA1387 is a 16 bit DAC chip, which would disqualify it for most "current designs" - since these days a DAC that can't handle 24 bit signals would be a niche market item at best. The TDA1387 also doesn't appear to support oversampling internally, and this leads me two conclusions- depending on how you implement it. If you don't use oversampling, then it's going to be very difficult to design a reconstruction filter that is sharp enough to remove what it has to, yet avoids significantly altering the audio frequency response. (In that situation, I would expect the reconstruction filter to have such a profound effect on the overall sound quality that it would completely overshadow and differences in the DAC topology itself). If you DO use oversampling, it would have to be external to the DAC, and you would have to design and program a custom oversampling filter, in which case I would expect the sound of THAT to overshadow the inherent sound of the DAC topology.

 
Cool, thanks for the clarification. I've done several reconstruction filter designs for NOS DACs, they're all freely available schematics on my blog and anyone with questions for clarification can post them on the blog. It was something of a challenge but 'very difficult' it wasn't. Its certainly possible not to impact the HF significantly but becomes more difficult (primarily inductor tolerances get very tricky), in the end I've gone for flatness to within half a dB up to 18kHz or so. I don't see why a custom oversampling filter would need to be designed - off the shelf ones are available. Some glue logic to adapt to I2S might be necessary though - which is a whole lot easier than starting from scratch on a filter. I have developed custom filter code for an ARM (M0, M3) processor myself which if anyone's interested I'd be happy to have a look for on my various disks in differing states of repair... When I did this I found that simply running the DAC faster made the sound worse so I've abandoned oversampling and stuck with NOS. The filter characteristics weren't the cause of the SQ degradation which was a loss of dynamics, a 'greying out' of timbres.
 
Jun 12, 2015 at 7:32 PM Post #5,837 of 6,500
  For example, if you're listening to Red Book CDs, then the 16 bit precision isn't a limitation that matters.
And, while you will end up with a rolled off high end if you use it at 44k, some fans of NOS DACs seem not to mind that.

 
There's no requirement for rolled off highs, there are a few ways to correct for that. I agree plenty of NOS devotees don't mind the 'NOS droop'. However NOS DACs using the TDA1387 are jolly uncommon - over on TaoBao a few designs have shown up from one vendor in the past six months or so though, at very reasonable prices. None of those designs though implement NOS droop correction - if you'd like to hear how a TDA1387 NOS DAC sounds when this is implemented you could do worse than follow the mods suggested over on this thread - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/269199-tda1387-x8-dac-lets-check-its-design-mod-not-play-music-not.html
 
Jun 12, 2015 at 7:43 PM Post #5,838 of 6,500
Cool. SATCH DAC all over again, but like 2.0. Glad to know it sounds better than the DACMagic (which isn't a good sounding DAC BTW).
 
Jun 12, 2015 at 7:45 PM Post #5,839 of 6,500
Originally Posted by BassDigger /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
This is why the timing (the clock and removing jitter) is so important for DS. And maybe it's why r2r sounds better; it isn't prone to the timing errors, in the same way that DS is.
After all, timing is at the heart of all music; the beat, the rhythm, the notes themselves; they're all frequencies; timing is everything. 
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Timing issues are far more important for a certain kind of D-S DAC, the kind that does not use on-chip switched capacitor filters. SCFs have been employed by many vendors to get around the timing issues inherent with having vast quantitites (exceeding the signal amplitude for lower-level signals) of ultrasonic noise.
 
If you study treatments of jitter one thing you might take away is that the higher the frequency a DAC produces, the more susceptible it is to jitter. In other words, the faster the signal is moving the more important timing errors become. On a D-S DAC the output ultrasonic noise is one to two orders of magnitude in frequency above the audio, hence one to two orders of magnitude more susceptible to jitter. Add in the fact that the ultrasonics are much higher amplitude relative to the wanted signal when the DAC's playing back quiet stuff (say < -40dBfs) and you do need to be very careful with output sample timing not to 'fold back' ultrasonic noise into the audio band.
 
Multibit DACs have no such susceptibility - even unfiltered NOS ones - as any ultrasonics produced track the signal level, they don't go beyond it.
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 12:02 AM Post #5,841 of 6,500
Quote:Tusco 1965
 
So, in essence the TDA1387 is the typical junk-pile DAC chip for those not concerned with sharp rolloff at 17Khz.



I own the Stealth DC-1 and I am having a hard time convincing myself to upgrade to the Schiit Yggdrasil or the Auralic Vega. It does everything I need it to do, all the inputs/outputs I need, a well implemented volume control,  and sounds pretty damn good too. It is smoother sounding than my ESS Sabre Dac (EE Minimax Junior), but both of these units offer great value at their respective price points.

The DC-1 is just exceptional.


1. Leave Head Fi and enjoy your gear. I say that meaning that you seem pleased with what you have. 2.Put the wallet away unless you're buying more music.
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1. This is SO wrong. Until the equipment becomes perfect, the journey continues. 
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2. Sacrilege.  Hand in your 'Headphoneus Supremus'  title immediately.  
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    Jose R has only 25 posts in 10 years. He needs to be encouraged to seek musical heaven
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I believe a severe castigation by way of a PM by a moderator is in order here. 
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 12:07 AM Post #5,842 of 6,500
 (Me)
  Am I right(?) in thinking that the key difference, between Delta-Sigma and R-2R, is that r2r processes the bits (up to 20 of them) in unison; all at the same time. The entire process is real-time, from start to finish.
Whereas DS (which started life as a way to add extra bits to a 14 bit r2r dac) processes them individually or separately, at high speed, and then has to put the bits back together, to reconstruct the real-time signal.
 
This is why the timing (the clock and removing jitter) is so important for DS. And maybe it's why r2r sounds better; it isn't prone to the timing errors, in the same way that DS is.
After all, timing is at the heart of all music; the beat, the rhythm, the notes themselves; they're all frequencies; timing is everything. 
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It is correct that an R2R DAC basically takes the full value of the sample as "input" and puts out a single voltage value "all at once" while a Delta-Sigma DAC essentially "slices it up in time, processes each piece in sequence, then sums the results". However, the conclusion that "that's why it sounds better" simply isn't logically valid. While the way a Delta-Sigma DAC works is certainly more complex, and intuitively seems "messier and less precise", the fact is that all that really counts is the result - and both deliver very accurate output signals. (The fact that the process used by an R2R DAC is simpler and easier to understand in no way suggests that it produces a "better" output.)
 
Neither Delta-Sigma DACs nor R2R DACs are "prone to timing errors". What's happening is that, because of the high level of oversampling used in Delta-Sigma DACs, they are more sensitive to timing errors that are present in the signal you send to them. This same factor is present to a degree in any oversampling DAC - because, the higher the clock rate, the more of a percentage error a fixed amount of jitter is in relation to it. This affects Delta-Sigma DACs more than other DACs because they oversample at a higher rate. If you send a bad signal to both an R2R DAC and a Delta-Sigma DAC, odds are that the Delta-Sigma DAC will produce more distortion as a result. Note that this situation doesn't exist if you send a GOOD quality signal to both. It just means that you have to be more careful what you send to a Delta-Sigma DAC if you want good results.
 
To put a bit of perspective on this.... Assuming a perfect input signal, with absolutely no jitter, and all else equal, a $5 Delta-Sigma chip will deliver performance equivalent to or better than that you get from a $50 R2R chip. However, since the Delta-Sigma chip is more sensitive to jitter, you're going to have to spend an extra $10 on the input circuitry to ensure that the Delta-Sigma chip gets a clean enough input signal to avoid having its performance degraded by jitter. However, assuming you deliver a clean signal to both, their outputs will be equivalent.
 
(However, this can be a "deal breaker" if you aren't able to design your other circuit elements well enough to deliver the clean signal that the Delta-Sigma DAC requires to perform well. This might suggest that, if you're designing a DIY project, or are a small company without the design know how and expensive test equipment required to design and test for low levels of jitter, the less strict signal requirements of the R2R chip might be a distinct advantage to you.)
 
Your final comment about "timing and music" also calls for additional comment.... (you are laboring under a common misconception there).
 
When we refer to jitter as a "timing error", we are talking about nanoseconds or picoseconds - that's BILLIONTHS and TRILLIONTHS of a second. To put this in perspective, at the 44.1k sample rate used on a CD, the samples are about 20,000,000 picoseconds apart. There is no way a human (or any other living creature) is going to HEAR an error of even tens of thousands of picoseconds directly. (A "decent" input stage, by today's standards, should limit the jitter to several hundred picoseconds at worst). In order to be audible as a beat "out of place", you would need an error of several milliseconds, or a speed error of several hundredths of a percent.
 
Producing a clean and correct output relies on converting samples that have the correct values at the correct times. If you have jitter, then the timing is slightly incorrect, so you're converting the right values at the WRONG times, which produces a result quite similar to what would happen if the timing was perfect but the sample values were wrong - you get distortion. As it turns out, the distortion you get is related to the frequency characteristics of the jitter, and is related to the content itself, but not in a "harmonic manner" (you get distortion that is related to the input signal, but doesn't consist of "simple harmonics" - which means that it doesn't sound exactly like "ordinary THD".)
 
When you see those graphs, with a sharp peak surrounded by a bunch of smaller peaks and assorted junk, what you're being shown is the overall spectrum of "what's coming out". The theoretical perfect output would be a single sharp narrow vertical line, and those other peaks are signal that shouldn't be there but is (distortion). Since harmonics tend to be masked by the music signal itself, and a lot of music already contains harmonic content anyway, we can reasonably assume that this unrelated and non-harmonic distortion will quite possibly be more audible and more annoying when it is present. This is why, with a DAC, we would hope to find not only an overall noise floor that is on average inaudible, but we would also hope that no individual "spike" would extend high enough above the average noise floor to itself be audible. So you look for a low noise floor ("the grass") and for there to be no peaks that extend very far above it.
 
Ignoring the pictures, most people who claim to notice low but significant amounts of jitter usually describe it as "blurring the sound stage" or "making things sound blurry"....  I would personally describe the effects as "making a well recorded wire brush cymbal sound more like a leaky steam valve" - the frequencies are all present, but you lose the "sense" of individual wires hitting metal and it sounds more like a generic burst of noise at the proper frequencies. I also tend to notice a difference on sibilants - to me they seem more exaggerated but less natural when a high level of jitter is present.
 
(Note that I'm talking about "jitter being present at the DAC" - which is all that counts. If the DAC has some sort of jitter reduction mechanism, which many do, then all that matters is how much jitter remains when the signal arrives at the actual DAC chip to be converted. As it turns out, it requires VERY careful circuit design to be able to remove or reduce jitter to a very low level, and to avoid introducing new jitter to the signal on its way to the DAC itself. Simply using a good clock is not enough to ensure low jitter on the audio signal - although using a bad clock can be enough to ensure a bad jitter spec.

 
Firstly, thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive and informative explanation.
 
I guess my terminology was incorrect; "prone to" does suggest that the dac is the cause of the jitter/errors. You're saying DS is more sensitive to them. TBH, I wasn't sure which.
 
But your explanation does seem to suggest that maybe my severely limited understanding, of the basics, wasn't totally incorrect.
 
I don't know that anybody thinks that you can actually hear the jitter frequencies. But, I guess, what's in question are the effects of jitter that are audible.
This understanding seems to be changing as time goes by. Originally, it was totally mis-understood, unknown even! But over the years it seems that engineers are discovering that it's effects are ever more influential to the sound reproduced.
You seem to believe that jitter can relatively easily be kept so low as have no influence on the sound, even for the sensitive DS designs. I'm not so sure that other learned people would agree, today or in the future.
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 4:57 AM Post #5,844 of 6,500
   
I'm glad you're enjoying your DC-1
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I wouldn't be quite so harsh on the TDA1387 .... it's simply a good quality "basic DAC", which looks like it might lend itself very well to some types of DIY projects.
It just lacks many of the features that are available on most of the "better" audio DACs that are currently available.
 
For example, if you're listening to Red Book CDs, then the 16 bit precision isn't a limitation that matters.
And, while you will end up with a rolled off high end if you use it at 44k, some fans of NOS DACs seem not to mind that.
As another possibility, you could RIP your CDs (at 16/44), then oversample them to 192k using computer software, and play the output through your NOS DAC.
This would allow you to extend your high frequency response well above 20 kHz while still using a relatively simple analog reconstruction filter.
(There is at least one player program that offers several options for resampling in software - and recommends just such a DAC to go with it.)
And, if you're into programming and hardware, you could even create your own outboard hardware based oversampling filter to go before it.
 
However, that's much too long a list of shortcomings and limitations for the TDA1387 to be a commercially viable component today.
(When, for a few dollars more, I can get an alternative component that doesn't have those limitations and shortcomings.... which is why the TDA1387 has been replaced.)

 

Isn’t it better to double the oversample rate like 44.1K -> (88.2K ->) 176.4K instead of go 44.1K -> 192K? My somehow limited understanding and experience is that you should always double or triple the oversample rate in even numbers, no matter if the oversample takes place in the DAC or in a PC. Some DACs are even using two different clocks; one for 44.1, 88.2, 176.4, 352.8 and another for 48, 96, 192, 384.

 

Btw I really appreciates your posts here. 

 
Jun 13, 2015 at 4:59 AM Post #5,845 of 6,500
...
 
For example, if you're listening to Red Book CDs, then the 16 bit precision isn't a limitation that matters.
And, while you will end up with a rolled off high end if you use it at 44k, some fans of NOS DACs seem not to mind that.
As another possibility, you could RIP your CDs (at 16/44), then oversample them to 192k using computer software, and play the output through your NOS DAC.
This would allow you to extend your high frequency response well above 20 kHz while still using a relatively simple analog reconstruction filter.
(There is at least one player program that offers several options for resampling in software - and recommends just such a DAC to go with it.)
And, if you're into programming and hardware, you could even create your own outboard hardware based oversampling filter to go before it.
...

 
Firstly, I wonder if anyone can direct me in the direction of a good explanation of oversampling (and digital to analogue conversion, in general); I've been trying to get my head around this for years!
 
I'm sorry if I'm nitpicking. But do you mean 'upsample'? And if so, does this mean using a program that 'adds' improvised data to the real music data?
Please tell more; my music collection is redbook; I'm very keen to know of ways that I can get the most out of it.
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 5:52 AM Post #5,846 of 6,500
I have a general question about bit depth and digital volume.
 
I was looking into it as my Yggy is plugged directly to a power amp and I'm using Jriver to attenuate the signal around 50dB.
 
I understand that lowering the volume reduced the ENOB (effective number of bits) but then I realized that if I'm listening at around 70dB (via speakers) than in any case I won't hear any sounds quieter than 70dB which is around 13Bit...? Is this correct? If so why bother with 24 or 20 bit Dacs?  Am I missing something?
 
Thank you,
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 8:32 AM Post #5,849 of 6,500
Thanks,
So what's the point about true 20 bit DACs if we barely hear 8 bit on the real world?

 
Read back a few pages; this topic has already been discussed, at length. 
 

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