[Stillhart]

  For the sake of not being the evangelist for the Geek Out v2 this will probably be my last post on it until I get to try it. But you can find an in depth review here (in the middle of the page) from Bill-P at the head-fi meet.
 
Also I was sent a PM from another attendee who said he owns the HRT microstreamer, Audioengine D1 and D3, Centrance DACport, Audioquest Dragonfly, Meridian Explorer, Resonnesence Herus, ODAC, Geek out 450/720/SE and it tops them all.

 
Well as those are all competing products, many of which are just okay, I find that much easier to believe than that it compares to the Yggy or the TT.
 
Amusingly he could have had a Yggy for what he spent on all those crappy little ones.  lol

 

[estreeter]

   
Well as those are all competing products, many of which are just okay, I find that much easier to believe than that it compares to the Yggy or the TT.
 
Amusingly he could have had a Yggy for what he spent on all those crappy little ones.  lol

 
Agreed, but he would have been waiting a very long time if his crystal ball had told him the Yggy was going into production in 2015 back when the DACport was initially released (2011/12 ?). With the possible exception of BHSE owners, very few of us have infinite patience or infallible foresight and I guess the people with the good fortune to own seriously expensive kit would regard anyone who continues to buy sub-10K DACs in much the same light. The upside is that those just entering the hobby have more choice than many of us enjoyed when we decided we wanted something better than the headphone socket on our laptops. 

 

[Stillhart]

   
Agreed, but he would have been waiting a very long time if his crystal ball had told him the Yggy was going into production in 2015 back when the DACport was initially released (2011/12 ?). With the possible exception of BHSE owners, very few of us have infinite patience or infallible foresight and I guess the people with the good fortune to own seriously expensive kit would regard anyone who continues to buy sub-10K DACs in much the same light. The upside is that those just entering the hobby have more choice than many of us enjoyed when we decided we wanted something better than the headphone socket on our laptops. 

 
Yes.  Obviously.  

 
Clearly my humor isn't working on the internet tonight.

 

[zerodeefex]

 
For the sake of not being the evangelist for the Geek Out v2 this will probably be my last post on it until I get to try it. But you can find an in depth review here (in the middle of the page) from Bill-P at the head-fi meet.

Also I was sent a PM from another attendee who said he owns the HRT microstreamer, Audioengine D1 and D3, Centrance DACport, Audioquest Dragonfly, Meridian Explorer, Resonnesence Herus, ODAC, Geek out 450/720/SE and it tops them all.

Well as those are all competing products, many of which are just okay, I find that much easier to believe than that it compares to the Yggy or the TT.

Amusingly he could have had a Yggy for what he spent on all those crappy little ones.  lol

I'm the person in question and i have a Yggdrasil. I bought them to compare for the community.

 

[Stillhart]

I'm the person in question and i have a Yggdrasil. I bought them to compare for the community.

 
And I applaud you for it.  My apologies if you mistook my humor for criticism.  It's okay to laugh once in a while, folks.  
 

 

[DreamKing]

I don't see why he'd mistake it for criticism or care if he already has a Yggdrasil.
 
But maybe your joke kind of hit too close to home for others lol.

 

[prot]

1. ...
2. ...
3. For those wanting i2s, I'm curious what converter with i2s out you guys are considering.
4. ...

... moved it here, seems more appopiate than the iggy impressions thread ...

I'm using a Gustard U12 (HDMI I2S) and thinking about a Melodious MX-U8 (Cat5 I2S) ... basically because it looks better . Both are very popular nowadays, very good according to a lot of users and peanuts cheap ($150-250) in hifi terms.

I did not personally test I2S but you can look into the U12 thread, many swear on it being better with various DACs. Maybe it is. For me it is just something I'd like to have/try at some point and more of a theoretical/whatif question. Many industry people complain about USB (mostly with good reason) but I do not see anyone trying alternatives.

• I2S may be one ... yes I know about the short-cable limitations but you can easily stack a DAC and a miniPC.
• Or maybe PCIE cable out of the PC with the pcie-i2s converter inside the DAC .. similar short-distance issues but you have the converter inside the DAC an can isolate the crap out of it. IIRC, the phasure DAC designer tried this but went back to USB (not sure why, maybe someone can clarify).
• Or ethernet ... send audio data over the network cable (much better for this purpose than USB) and just add a network endpoint & ethernet-to-I2S converter inside the DAC ..something as small and cheap as a raspi can do all that.. and in any case such a solution should not be harder/costlier than this contraption

Any of the above could be (in theory) better than the current CPU-PCIE-USB-(SPDIF-)I2S-DACchip chain. And I'm sure there are other solutions, maybe much better. There are lots of people doing interesting experiments on dyiaudio or in android/raspi communities, but even if they have the right plan/idea, most have neither the tools nor the expertise of a hifi vendor. OTOH, the hifi vendors (even more progressive ones like Schiit) dont seem to do anything but complain about USB.

* edited for (hopefully) better readability.
And after checking a few more things, I'd like to borrow purrin's messiah hat and say the future lies somewhere here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_network_protocols. Actually, that's not even my prediction.

 

[BassDigger]

... moved it here, seems more appopiate than the iggy impressions thread ...

I'm using a Gustard U12 (HDMI I2S) and thinking about a Melodious MX-U8 (Cat5 I2S) ... basically because it looks better

. Both are very popular nowadays, very good according to a lot of users and peanuts cheap ($150-250) in hifi terms.

I did not personally test I2S but you can look into the U12 thread, many swear on it being better with various DACs. Maybe it is. For me it is just something I'd like to have/try at some point and more of a theoretical/whatif question. Many industry people complain about USB (mostly with good reason) but I do not see anyone trying alternatives.
I2S may be one ... yes I know about the short-cable limitations but you can easily stack a DAC and a miniPC.
Or maybe PCIE cable out of the PC with the pcie-i2s converter inside the DAC .. similar short-distance issues but you have the converter inside the DAC an can isolate the crap out of it. IIRC, the phasure DAC designer tried this but went back to USB (not sure why, maybe someone can clarify).
Or ethernet ... send audio data over the network cable (much better for this purpose than USB) and just add a network endpoint & ethernet-to-I2S converter inside the DAC ..something as small and cheap as a raspi can do all that.. and in any case such a solution should not be harder/costlier than this contraption https://www.silabs.com/products/interface/usbtouart/Pages/usb-to-i2s-digital-audio-bridge.aspx

Any of the above could be (in theory) better than the current PCIE-USB-(SPDIF-)I2S chain. And I'm sure there are other solutions, maybe much better. There are lots of people doing interesting experiments on dyiaudio or in android/raspi communities, but even if they have the right plan/idea, most have neither the tools nor the expertise of a hifi vendor. OTOH, the hifi vendors (even more progressive ones like Schiit) dont seem to do anything but complain about USB.

 
I²S is probably the best connection; it's carries the important clocking data, along with the music feed. But, it's only going to be as good as the clock that's feeding it. Any usb to I²S converter also needs to be a reclocking device (I guess that the U12 etc are?).
But this still doesn't overcome the two main drawbacks of usb connection: Firstly, your computer is playing the music (not ideal); secondly, your computer is (most likely) electrically connected, and propagating all that RFI to your precious equipment!

 

[zerodeefex]

[CONTENTEMBED=/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-sucks/4830#post_11571746 layout=inline]I don't see why he'd mistake it for criticism or care if he already has a Yggdrasil.[/CONTENTEMBED]
[CONTENTEMBED=/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-sucks/4830#post_11571746 layout=inline] [/CONTENTEMBED]
[CONTENTEMBED=/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-sucks/4830#post_11571746 layout=inline]But maybe your joke kind of hit too close to home for others lol.[/CONTENTEMBED]

I thought it was funny which was why I posted that I have an Yggdrasil. Also, I'd be a dumb dumb to buy all of them to keep . Once a friend returns a box of them, I'm doing a big sell off!

 

[Sonic Defender]

   
I²S is probably the best connection; it's carries the important clocking data, along with the music feed. But, it's only going to be as good as the clock that's feeding it. Any usb to I²S converter also needs to be a reclocking device (I guess that the U12 etc are?).
But this still doesn't overcome the two main drawbacks of usb connection: Firstly, your computer is playing the music (not ideal); secondly, your computer is (most likely) electrically connected, and propagating all that RFI to your precious equipment!

Are you sure a computer is really an issue? In the end it simply acts as a transport and I'm not sure that as a transport a computer is inherently inferior to most CD players on the market. I know I was spending over a $1000 for my CD players in the past and when I switched to my basic Dell desktop I never noticed any degradation in sound quality. Everything is electrically connected and the whole notion of noise from utility power always being an issue is a contested notion. I am sure that in some cases you are completely correct, but I'm not so sure that as a blanket statement this is always completely accurate.
 
At the heart of this issue (as with many things in this hobby) is if measureable, but not audible, is it an issue?

 

[BassDigger]

 
Are you sure a computer is really an issue? In the end it simply acts as a transport and I'm not sure that as a transport a computer is inherently inferior to most CD players on the market. I know I was spending over a $1000 for my CD players in the past and when I switched to my basic Dell desktop I never noticed any degradation in sound quality. Everything is electrically connected and the whole notion of noise from utility power always being an issue is a contested notion. I am sure that in some cases you are completely correct, but I'm not so sure that as a blanket statement this is always completely accurate.
 
At the heart of this issue (as with many things in this hobby) is if measureable, but not audible, is it an issue?

 
I was trying not to make it an all encompassing statement, but i do believe that computers are not good hifi; they are not quality transports, unless they're specifically designed (hardware and software) to be so.
 
I guess that this doesn't mean that, with good connecting equipment, a pc or mac can't make a reasonable transport, especially if the equipment downstream is doing a good job and isn't particularly susceptible to (computer generated) RFI. The fact that so many, such as yourself, are happy with such set-ups is testament to this.
 
Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but some learned people have convinced me that a dedicated transport is the best solution, and I've found that it doesn't have to cost much, certainly no more than the products (including cables) that people are buying to try and.get the best out of their usb output.

 

[ginetto61]

Hi i have just on opinion on audio with a pc source
If the usb dac or the usb to spdif converter is very well designed and built the pc becomes less of an issue.
For instance reading many many reviews i found two units well done (i am sure there are thousands of others)
1)  the usb dac from Ayre Acoustics
2)  the usb to spdif interface from Berkeley Audio
I read in many places that used even with just a decent PC the performance is excellent.
I tend to believe this. 
Of course they all provide the usual power isolation, asynchronus mode, etc. etc. 
They are well designed and built.
Another observation.
Many usb dacs sound much better when used from the spdif input.
Another evidence of the great importance of the usb interface. 
I think it does not need to be extremely expensive
Just well done.
Regards, gino 

 

[prot]

 
I was trying not to make it an all encompassing statement, but i do believe that computers are not good hifi; they are not quality transports, unless they're specifically designed (hardware and software) to be so.

I guess that this doesn't mean that, with good connecting equipment, a pc or mac can't make a reasonable transport, especially if the equipment downstream is doing a good job and isn't particularly susceptible to (computer generated) RFI. The fact that so many, such as yourself, are happy with such set-ups is testament to this.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but some learned people have convinced me that a dedicated transport is the best solution, and I've found that it doesn't have to cost much, certainly no more than the products (including cables) that people are buying to try and.get the best out of their usb output.

It is a bit of an audiophile-sport to blame computers for whatever (they think) is wrong in their systems.
Agree, PC are overly complicated, unstable, ugly and so on ... but no, they are not eating any of your music bits . And if for some mysterious reason you think that your PC is the electric-devil which fills your DAC with the ugliest electrons ever, just buy a battery and a dual-head usb cable and $40 later the universe will be back in order . Besides, it's the DAC's job to isolate itself from eventual transport noise.. and one of the main reasons why separate DACs exist.

 

[evillamer]

Between giving up my hard earned money to Mike Mofatt or Larry Ho. I guess it's pretty obvious who is more experienced and reputable.

 

[Turn&cough]

Don't forget that there is a whole industry being built around the notion that computers are evil when it comes to music. Just think about those ridiculously priced USB and ethernet cables that are popping up everywhere.
 
Ironic since computers have become a big part of the recording industry.