Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)
May 10, 2015 at 3:25 PM Post #5,176 of 6,500
Gonna use an analogy here: 
 
Listening to D-S(Specifically ES9018) is akin to watching a gymnastic performance, you get see alot of fast action but not much of the delicate movement.
 
Listening to R2R(PCM1704UK) is akin to watching a ballerina performance, each movement is delicate and precise.
 
May 10, 2015 at 3:41 PM Post #5,177 of 6,500
  Gonna use an analogy here: 
 
Listening to D-S(Specifically ES9018) is akin to watching a gymnastic performance, you get see alot of fast action but not much of the delicate movement.
 
Listening to R2R(PCM1704UK) is akin to watching a ballerina performance, each movement is delicate and precise.

Damn! I'm so interested with R2R until this analogy. I like watching the gymnastic performance more than ballerinas! Got to think about my DAC acquisition plans now...
 
May 10, 2015 at 4:23 PM Post #5,179 of 6,500
May 10, 2015 at 5:02 PM Post #5,180 of 6,500
I think I was very clear when I said  "no doubt the Yggdrasil is superior in SQ". Both are excellent, but there are levels and levels of excellence. What I also learnt, is that I would be interested in principle what I could get out of the Theta with a better interface/source. And Yggdrasil for that matter and perhaps this would be outside using USB with both.


Thx for the clarification.
For me, the only thing that says "Iggy is clearly/much/nodoubt better than XYZ" is people who stop using XYZ after they got the Iggy .. or sell the XYZ asap. Oldschool I guess (ppl say vs ppl do). And you did not .. and I do not see many doing any of that

P.S.
I also get annoyed when ppl think they can speak for someone else .. a surprisingly popular trend around here. More of that oldschool of mine I guess
 
May 10, 2015 at 5:19 PM Post #5,182 of 6,500
  Damn! I'm so interested with R2R until this analogy. I like watching the gymnastic performance more than ballerinas! Got to think about my DAC acquisition plans now...

How about if the ballerinas are naked and in your living room?
 
May 10, 2015 at 5:21 PM Post #5,183 of 6,500
Old school people still spell words out completely and correctly. You can't be that old school. :)


Definitely too old school for spelling bees .. and lazy ppl of any age no good writers make. And oldschool is surely diff than old. And if that's what you wanted to imply, no, I'm not "you kids get off my lawn" old. And this is of course a useless and kinda funn(k)y post.
 
May 10, 2015 at 5:28 PM Post #5,184 of 6,500
Haven't been all the way through this thread, but having had three sessions listening to the Nad 51,  PS Audio NuWave DAC, the REGA Dac-R and the 'toy like' Hugo Chord, I have bought the Hugo.
 
I just don't recognise the description that started this thread. It came down to the PS and the Hugo, but the Hugo was utterly convincing with whatever it was thrown. Listening was through a mixture of headphones and speakers. 
 
May 10, 2015 at 6:17 PM Post #5,185 of 6,500
  Regarding filters, I've heard DACs with standard filters, either just a default/single option or with multiple options to choose from, and DACs with off-the-shelf or, better yet, custom filters. I'd like to say I prefer minimum phase over linear phase, but for most D/S designs, I generally found I just prefer less oversampling than more oversampling (i.e. 2x vs 8x, 2x being preferable to my ears). Slow roll-off vs sharp or fast roll-off. Etc. Then again, I most prefer a non-oversampled design, which I know for some is a quick way to disconnect them from the music. Just rolling with what resonates best with me.
 
On the other hand, I've heard 8x oversampling filters that were really quite pleasant. The Theta Gen Va has such a filter. No hint of glare, digital hash, or any other similar unpleasant characteristic. I've heard some standard 8x filters that weren't so bad either, usually from Wolfson-based designs.
 
Sure, most standard digital filters are probably nothing to write home about. I think some are better than others. For example, I like what Wolfson does, and I like DACs that utilize the variety of digital filter options available from Wolfson. Gamma2 and some of the Audio-GD DACs are good examples of this, with A-GD being awesome for having options ranging from 2x through 8x oversampling with various roll-off types. The PWD Mk1 I tried was a very poor example. All of the filters were 8x, and PS Audio ordered the filters differently on the DAC than what they specified in the manual, so I've never really trusted them to be competent after that despite some liking the PWD Mk2 (Mk1 -> 2 upgrade, that is). But, even then, 8x oversampling or not, I didn't care for the PWD Mk1's sound all that much. It robbed the Wolfson chip of what it did best compared to other D/S chips in terms of tone, liquidity, and so on.
 
Anyway, while I generally prefer less oversampling (or none) over more oversampling, clearly there are exceptions to this rule or certain options and implementation I don't mind using standard, off-the-shelf, or entirely custom digital filter designs. I don't think it's right to simplify it down to linear phase vs. minimum phase, more ringing vs. less ringing, pre-ringing vs. post-ringing, 0x through 8x oversampling, and so on. Way too many other variables to consider in the DAC.
 
But all this talk of digital filters, linearity and accuracy, resolution and detail extraction...none of this touches on where I think R2R/multi-bit really shines. I just have not heard a single D/S DAC that gives the three-dimensional, full-bodied sound, real sound that you get from R2R/multi-bit. And by full bodied, I don't mean warm or bassy, though R2R/multi-bit does usually seem to have better bass slam, texture, and pitch differentiation assuming good chips and a good implementation. I mean that each instrument, voice, and fart sounds like something that has some sort of real presence and body to it vs. some sort of flatter, 2D representation of said element. D/S generally just sounds like a cheap imitation, good detail or not, and I find it difficult to go back to D/S DACs now.

 
 
So I can get a better perspective, what D/S Dacs have you heard - Hi'er end ones?
 
May 10, 2015 at 6:27 PM Post #5,186 of 6,500
Admittedly, nothing insanely expensive, and not near the number of DACs purrin has heard (though it seems I already have similar findings as him). Don't have the funds to try these insanely expensive DACs myself, so would have to rely on folks loaning me stuff like the M1 to test out.
 
I'm sure I'm missing some, but off the top of my head, Gungnir, X-Sabre, PWD Mk1, then a lot of modestly priced stuff like the Gamma2, Audio-GD NFB 3.2 (or something like that). So, nothing top-tier, but nothing that would also nothing that would give me a desire to go higher when modestly priced R2R/multi-bit DACs do much, much more for me than what D/S I've tested.
 
Always willing to re-evaluate if someone wants to try to change my mind with loaner gear. :)
 
May 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM Post #5,187 of 6,500
May 10, 2015 at 7:19 PM Post #5,188 of 6,500
I've heard a couple custom filters, or stuff from Wolfson that can do all sorts of stuff (2x-8x, LP, MP, etc.), and there are some that sound good to my ears. But I'm right there with you preferring NOS even for 44.1. I get that you and I are probably in the minority here, but something about it just sounds more natural to me in a sort of real way despite some compromises (compromises that I know do the opposite and make NOS sound less real and natural to others).

Speaking of which, I'd love to hear a TotalDAC sometime, though I must say I've been incredibly satisfied with my Audial Model S I recently picked up. It's heads and shoulders above the Hex or NOS1704 I had before.


This Audial DAC isn't much talked about, is it? I just saw this audiogon review, this looks indeed very promising:
1. Midnight black background
2. Deep, deep, deep depth of soundstage
3. Elegantly detailed
4. Harmonious
5. Tight bass notes
6. Distortion at record low levels
7. Inherently listenable
8. Seductive, sexy. Hurt me...
9. The best digital has to offer
 
May 10, 2015 at 8:02 PM Post #5,190 of 6,500
This Audial DAC isn't much talked about, is it? I just saw this audiogon review, this looks indeed very promising:
1. Midnight black background
2. Deep, deep, deep depth of soundstage
3. Elegantly detailed
4. Harmonious
5. Tight bass notes
6. Distortion at record low levels
7. Inherently listenable
8. Seductive, sexy. Hurt me...
9. The best digital has to offer

 
Indeed, I had a hard time finding info on it, especially reviews, so it was a rather risky purchase on my end. But to comment on the points above and add my own thoughts:
 
- Much more resolving than the Metrum Hex or NOS1704. Actually keeps up the pace fairly well with the Theta Gen Va I have, though with the slightly more rolled, slightly softer sound you'd expect from a non-oversampling DAC. But the Model S really opens up with high-res content and starts to bridge this "softness gap."
- No hint of digital glare, hash, or other harshness. Smooth in that regard, but NOT gloss-over-details smooth like a Metrum. The Theta, of course, sounds sharper and a bit more in focus, but still has that slight hint of over-sharpness that I hear from about every oversampled DAC (i.e. finger picking a nylon guitar on oversampled DACs makes it sound more like someone is using a pick, not their fingers, on strings that sound more metallic than nylon strings do to me IRL...just one example...though the opposite could be said about cymbals, which sometimes are a bit too polite on NOS DACs).
- Soundstage one of the best I've heard from NOS so far. Fairly 3D. Does a nice job bringing out subtle positional cues and such or weird mastering quirks across both channels. But more intimate/smaller than the Theta Gen Va, though not by a whole lot. IME, NOS struggles when it comes to producing a very large soundstage, so it's impressive for me to hear how well this does with soundstage and placements.
- Excellent dynamics, good bass slam. Slightly warmer tone than Theta Gen Va, but, again, not by much. Theta is a tad bit tighter and very slightly more resolving down low but about on par with dynamics and slam. When things get really crazy down low, Theta does a bit better bringing things out cleanly. To me, it's more like splitting hairs, and having a nice SPDIF converter bridges this gap to an extent.
- Distortion is indeed very low, both on the listed specs and based on some measurements I took (unpublished). Right channel performs a bit better than left at 2nd order distortion (about 0.007% on left vs 0.002% on right, 0dB 1KHz tone), but they perform the same beyond 2nd order. The rest of the measurements look solid, and not just for a NOS DAC.
- Excellent tone.
- One of the first things I noticed was how well it did portraying various recording and mastering techniques across various albums. Generally gets out of the way without imparting too many of its own characteristics.
 
Essentially, it's like it borrows all the good aspects I've heard from various NOS DACs so far, but has more of that magic that I've heard from the legendary DACs produced in the mid-90s. To me, it's head and shoulders above the NOS DACs I'd heard and does indeed please me as much as DACs like the Theta Gen Va or Classe DAC-1 (the Classe being a bit too much for my tastes...too detailed, a bit rough at times, but had huge slam and the best, most holographic soundstage I've heard to date).
 
It was definitely a hunt for me to find this DAC. I knew I wanted a non-oversampling DAC. The Metrums were the most emotionally involving and least fatiguing of what I'd tried at the time. The NOS1704 had more detail than the Metrums but was mushier, too closed-in sounding, and had a sort of artificial glare to the sound despite it being rolled and smooth sounding at the same time.
 
All this talk about DAC accuracy and linearity pointed me to a handful of old-school, legendary, multi-bit DACs. After a lot of research, sampling some DACs (including a TDA1543 DAC and some DACs I'd just rather not talk about), I decided that the TDA1541A chip seemed like it would offer what I wanted in terms of overall tone and other sonic characteristics as well as strong performance, even with reported linearity and accuracy, on the datasheets (though I know purrin said he doubted the INL/DNL specs on the 1541A datasheet). The hard part was finding a NOS, TDA1541A-based DAC that looked good on paper OR wasn't some cheap design, so I really didn't have any other options beyond the Audial Model S. Audial was about as transparent as I could find in terms of listing their DAC's technical performance. I had already been bitten in the ass too many times by products that didn't have many specifications listed. Usually that's a sign they don't want you to know how it performs on paper, though not always. Plus, Pedja of Audial was super friendly and happy to answer any questions I had about his products.
 
It took a couple hundred hours to sound its best (and I'm usually not too keen on believing in equipment burn-in like this), but boy did it open up after that! Though, both a blessing and a curse, the TDA1541A uses an older build type or architecture of sorts that means it gets rather hot, so it's best to only turn on when you need it to avoid damage from long-term heat exposure (usually leaving it off over night is sufficient, if you listen on a daily basis). On the upside, the thing sounds its best after maybe an hour of warmup, vs. a week for the Yggy. :wink:
 
Again, I haven't heard the TotalDAC or all other non-oversampling DACs, but I'm still in love with the Model S so far after a couple months. Keeps growing on me too.
 

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