Yeah, you definitely get what you pay for. There are duffers who cobble together free plugins and distribute them online who don't do very good work. You probably have to pay to get a good one... but it's still going to be cheaper than buying a high end tube amp with no adjustability at all.
There is absolutely no sort of analog coloration that couldn't be reproduced in a digital plugin. But for someone to put in the work, there needs to be a use for it and a market. If they can create a virtual Tom Cruise, they can create a virtual tube amp.
Yeah, you definitely get what you pay for. There are duffers who cobble together free plugins and distribute them online who don't do very good work. You probably have to pay to get a good one... but it's still going to be cheaper than buying a high end tube amp with no adjustability at all.
There is absolutely no sort of analog coloration that couldn't be reproduced in a digital plugin. But for someone to put in the work, there needs to be a use for it and a market. If they can create a virtual Tom Cruise, they can create a virtual tube amp.
Even the company that made the fake Tom Cruise said it’s not perfect but it’s close. That’s the thing, Deep Fakes can trick people, maybe not now but the idea is that in 5 more years they will?
I have known a jewelry maker for about 20 years. I don’t know why but he has told me about the same concept over and over again, like I’ve never heard him talk about it before?
What he states is each material is slightly different. And each material has properties unto itself. Now on the surface this does not make sense, but because we are talking to a jewelry manufacturer it takes on a whole new meaning. Take for instance Iron. If you have an Iron bar, every one is slightly different depending on what brand it is. Sure it passes the tests but still it’s different bar to bar. Now let’s look at gold. You have a bar of pure gold. So on the surface it seems that every bar is exactly the same? You pay the same, and in many ways they can be worked with the same to make jewelry. But you may run into trouble. You know why? Every gold bar may actually be different. Yep.
The process of working with the material actually will start to show differences. This is because the gold actually has different materials in it. Some has copper, some lead.....and so on. It’s a small amount but as long as it passes the purity, then it can be mixed with whatever. This normally does not add complexity, but at times it actually does. What does this have to do with a fake Tom Cruise or tube VSTs?
It has to do with a philosophy of life. It means that all things may have inherent special qualities that can’t be changed. Headphones can’t always be EQed to be something else. This is due to their personal unchanging quality. So many things are this way. But still it’s small and within certain values. I took pre-med anatomy and physiology classes in school. One thing the teacher always said was vitamin C is vitamin C, no matter where you purchased it from. He would always say the same about aspirin, as long as it was the correct amount then where ever it’s from, it’s always treated as the same. Still you wonder what other ingredients are in different brands.
In audio I’m fairly sure I’m delusional to a slight degree. As the expectation bias has me hear everything slightly different. Different amps, different headphones that in any way can’t be made to sound the same. Every source has a slightly new and different tone.
So my friend just takes it in stride that a silver bar will be just ever so slightly different even though they are purchased as being the same. He needs to figure out the mixture as it’s that percentage rate that is never disclosed or listed. And that small percentage makes a difference when you start working with the metal.
It really isn’t rocket science to emulate tubes. It is being done well whether you know about it or not. All of this denial of the existence of tube emulation VSTs by people who have no experience with audio filter plugins sounds to me like “It’ll never fly, Orville.”
Of course you can digitally simulate the sound of a colored tube amp.
It really isn’t rocket science to emulate tubes. It is being done well whether you know about it or not. All of this denial of the existence of tube emulation VSTs by people who have no experience with audio filter plugins sounds to me like “It’ll never fly, Orville.”
Of course you can digitally simulate the sound of a colored tube amp.
Tubes aren't used in studios for coloration of playback sound the way they're used in audiophile circles. They're used because of the way they handle transients and overdriving. I'm not an engineer, so I can't speak to the technical aspects, but vocals are generally recorded using tubes. Vocals are a perfect storm for problems. The mic level is very low and is going to be boosted all along the chain, dragging noise and artifacting up with it. Tubes do several things that help make the huge dynamics and potential for clipping more manageable. They flatten out the midrange frequencies where vocals lie and soften harsh transients. if pushed into being overdriven which can happen recording vocals, tube amplification distorts in a euphonic way, which reduces the need for the vocalist to work the mike quite so carefully. I've also been told there are technical reasons related to the speed of the noise gates and compression used with vocals (softening the transitions? rounding off the "on/off" nature of the noise gate? not sure.) You would have to ask Gregorio about that. A lot of this is beyond me.
But in a nutshell, in the studio you are working with low level direct feeds from microphones that are massively dynamic and require a lot of compression to sound good in a recording. That compression and boosting of level can create effects that will reveal noise gates and accentuate unwanted sharp transients. Smoothing over the sound at the first step is cleaner and more effective than doing it later on in the chain where noise and artifacts have been boosted and blended with other sound. It's desirable to "round off" vocals in a way that isn't good at all for recording drums for instance. You optimize each mix element individually. You don't apply the same processing to the whole mix across the board. Gregorio can feel free to correct me in any of this.
Tube amps in a home audio system serve a completely different purpose- apples and oranges. In home audio, the tube coloration is applied at the last step, not the first. It affects the entire mix equally, not just things like the vocals that can be improved by the use of tubes. When a recording is recorded, mixed and mastered, all of the aspects of the textures of the sound are balanced, so you have warm, smoothed out lower midrange going on at the same time you have crisp transients on the drums. The beneficial effect of the tubes is already incorporated into the sound laid down on the master. The engineers don't intend for a further layer of coloration to be applied to the whole mix. If they wanted to do that, they would have applied it to the master themselves.
Now that doesn't mean that you can't drench everything in sticky honey yourself if you want. It's your stereo, you can make it sound however you want. All I'm saying is, if you are going to do that, start from a baseline of fidelity, and then add coloration in a way that is adjustable to your own tastes- not in an electronically hard wired "take it or leave it" sort of way. It's just a matter of practicality. If you have a particular individual coloration you prefer, it's better to be able to set settings to precisely nail that, not rely on some random coloration created by deliberately out of spec equipment.
And yes, you *can* synthesize the sound of tubes in home playback using digital signal processing.
Applying coloration across the whole mix is a different animal than the way tubes are used in recording vocals. If you're going to do it, do it smart.
I don't do any style of home recording studio work anymore so can't really comment on the use of VSTs and computer vs tube rack equipment.
Though I haven't done a lot of side by side tests you would be surprised how much some tube amps for audiophile uses have very limited warmth. Meaning there are qualities (you speak of) that are actually limited of coloration. Meaning some tube amps have a very solid-state sound, though you are gifted with a 3D soundstage as well as a "character" of bass and treble which is possibly better than what can be found in solid-state equipment. Again here generalizations are not good nor maybe applicable, as there are thousands of different tube sounds and different tube personalities. Folks tend to look at all tube amps as syrupy and slow. When it's not always the case.
But as far as tube audiophile equipment goes...............
Though one issue is the noise floor, as I have not encountered a tube amp that was as low noise (noise floor) as solid-state?
Note the two tube amps above actually have a fast almost solid-state sound. They in many ways give the listener the best of both worlds. And I did do a side by side and found very little difference between the two. The 5LE has a much bigger investment in tubes yet is almost exactly the same sounding. Of course there are many tube changes where new sounds can be introduced with different tubes. I spent about two hours testing these two tube amps next to one another. It's fascinating as from what I have heard they both offer the most solid-state sound, as well sound is almost identical.
3) Woo Audio 3
The Woo 3 is really an exploration into the "issues" that people often hear as basic tube qualities. Slow bass, rounded treble, laid back sound. In this situation the Woo Audio 3 is also very low power. Also coincidentally there are not a whole lot of headphones that become magical, with it? The HD600, HD650 do well.......but maybe it all depends what you are after if you value the soundsignature at all? Yes it has personality and has color in the sense of the word. If that's what you want then that's what you get. I have not experimented with tube (change-outs) but many have and have found a nice difference over stock tubes.
Could there be heavy (tube sounding) solid state amps and faster (than solid-state) tube amps? Imagine a tube and that sounds more solid-state than some (warmer) solid-state amps? This style of exploration comes with testing and obviously a lot of variables and expectation bias. But you have to believe that tube amps and solid state audiophile amps inherently sound slightly different.......to start with. I mean different from one another in testing. Again this all goes back to each piece of equipment sounding unique. The issues with tubes is they are delicate, they sound different when first tuned on and different 45 minutes later. They are complicated and take more effort to maintain. Tubes fail after a certain amount of time. All I've had an encounter with................hum. Though it's only noticeable when the music is turned off. I don't have my Woo 5 LE with me at the present time or I would do side by sides, as memory is only of a certain value.
Tubes aren't used in studios for coloration of playback sound the way they're used in audiophile circles. They're used because of the way they handle transients and overdriving. I'm not an engineer, so I can't speak to the technical aspects, but vocals are generally recorded using tubes. Vocals are a perfect storm for problems. The mic level is very low and is going to be boosted all along the chain, dragging noise and artifacting up with it. Tubes do several things that help make the huge dynamics and potential for clipping more manageable. They flatten out the midrange frequencies where vocals lie and soften harsh transients. if pushed into being overdriven which can happen recording vocals, tube amplification distorts in a euphonic way, which reduces the need for the vocalist to work the mike quite so carefully. I've also been told there are technical reasons related to the speed of the noise gates and compression used with vocals (softening the transitions? rounding off the "on/off" nature of the noise gate? not sure.) You would have to ask Gregorio about that. A lot of this is beyond me.
But in a nutshell, in the studio you are working with low level direct feeds from microphones that are massively dynamic and require a lot of compression to sound good in a recording. That compression and boosting of level can create effects that will reveal noise gates and accentuate unwanted sharp transients. Smoothing over the sound at the first step is cleaner and more effective than doing it later on in the chain where noise and artifacts have been boosted and blended with other sound. It's desirable to "round off" vocals in a way that isn't good at all for recording drums for instance. You optimize each mix element individually. You don't apply the same processing to the whole mix across the board. Gregorio can feel free to correct me in any of this.
Tube amps in a home audio system serve a completely different purpose- apples and oranges. In home audio, the tube coloration is applied at the last step, not the first. It affects the entire mix equally, not just things like the vocals that can be improved by the use of tubes. When a recording is recorded, mixed and mastered, all of the aspects of the textures of the sound are balanced, so you have warm, smoothed out lower midrange going on at the same time you have crisp transients on the drums. The beneficial effect of the tubes is already incorporated into the sound laid down on the master. The engineers don't intend for a further layer of coloration to be applied to the whole mix. If they wanted to do that, they would have applied it to the master themselves.
Now that doesn't mean that you can't drench everything in sticky honey yourself if you want. It's your stereo, you can make it sound however you want. All I'm saying is, if you are going to do that, start from a baseline of fidelity, and then add coloration in a way that is adjustable to your own tastes- not in an electronically hard wired "take it or leave it" sort of way. It's just a matter of practicality. If you have a particular individual coloration you prefer, it's better to be able to set settings to precisely nail that, not rely on some random coloration created by deliberately out of spec equipment.
And yes, you *can* synthesize the sound of tubes in home playback using digital signal processing.
Applying coloration across the whole mix is a different animal than the way tubes are used in recording vocals. If you're going to do it, do it smart.
There are excellent tube amps that are just as high fidelity as solid state. They put out audibly transparent sound. I think people spend a lot of money on things like that not because of sound quality, but because of the fetish value and the neat looking glowing tubes on top. Otherwise, why bother? Just buy a solid state amp that costs a lot less and isn't so much of a hassle. Audiophiles attribute magical qualities to tubes (3D soundstage, no "digital glare", etc.) but those are just descriptions of the placebo effect.
All you need from an amp is audible transparency. But that isn't what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about colored sound that is able to be discerned as different than audibly transparent sound.
By the way, when I mentioned low noise floor I was referring to the sound with a noise gate. The gate filters the sound in the silent parts of the dialogue cutting in and out around the sound, and the tubes round off the sharp edges of the gate to make it less noticeable... or at least that is how I understand it.
There are excellent tube amps that are just as high fidelity as solid state. They put out audibly transparent sound. I think people spend a lot of money on things like that not because of sound quality, but because of the fetish value and the neat looking glowing tubes on top. They attribute magical qualities to them (3D soundstage, no "digital glare", etc.) but those are just descriptions of the placebo effect.
All you need from an amp is audible transparency. But that isn't what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about colored sound that is able to be discerned as different than audibly transparent sound.
So true in that some amps really put out placebo effect. You spend the cash, you witness the size and scale of what has been made. It's almost a given that small low weight amps get no respect. That and there are shinny faceplates and giant dials for volume. Add expensive tubes and it is very hard to be able to find reality. A massive amount of expectation bias is created!
It's almost that small amps get treated as the enemy. They get looked at like they can't perform or perform faulty. How can they make some dongle amps even sound good?
But it is a reality that many big amps sound great. It's all up to the listener to decide if they are actually hearing a better quality. Some amps add distortion or color, other amps are not as fast. The actual power level is a wide range of choices. And who is to question the load your headphones place on output. Some headphones are incredibly easy to drive, some not. Some headphones are driven to a certain character with one amp, then another amp exploits another character of the headphone. I have some headphones (especially the k701) that will only work well with the Woo Audio LE. That means that the gambit of amps I have actually don't work, or work part way.
Impedance issues are separate from solid state vs tube. A mismatch there will sound bad even with the best amp in the world. Again, we are talking about tube coloration here. An audibly transparent tube amp sounds the same as an audibly transparent solid state amp. If you want the kind of coloration tubes add to sound quality, it's better to do that with digital signal processing that to randomly look for tubes with the exact kind and degree of error that you are looking for.
Impedance issues are separate from solid state vs tube. A mismatch there will sound bad even with the best amp in the world. Again, we are talking about tube coloration here. An audibly transparent tube amp sounds the same as an audibly transparent solid state amp. If you want the kind of coloration tubes add to sound quality, it's better to do that with digital signal processing that to randomly look for tubes with the exact kind and degree of error that you are looking for.
Audibly transparent is the same sound by definition. Any deviation from that is coloration of one sort or another. Soundstage is defined in the mix, not the playback. And tone is a function of frequency response. A balanced response is a balanced response. It will only have a tone if it deviates from balanced, which would be coloration.
I agree, except at times slight color and character is wanted? Also, there may be a quality of expanded of a soundstage which provided by tubes that is special? It’s positioning? It is hard to explain what it is, it is like the tube sound was more real? Again though it could just be my perception?
Audibly transparent is the same sound by definition. Any deviation from that is coloration of one sort or another. Soundstage is defined in the mix, not the playback. And tone is a function of frequency response. A balanced response is a balanced response. It will only have a tone if it deviates from balanced, which would be coloration.
I already addressed what to do if you want coloration of a certain type in post 111 at the end.
Soundstage is determined by the placement of sound objects in the mix. It can be degraded if you have crosstalk, but you can't get more precise soundstage than the engineers put there originally. Often headphone people call the openness or closedness of their cans soundstage. But that is a function of the construction of the headphones, not the amp. In audiophile circles, "soundstage" is one of the most common words used to describe the results of the placebo effect. It's often subjective perception, not objective fidelity or quality of sound.
That's imaging, you blah blah the wrong way mate....you can get more precise imaging with better headphones and even IEM's. This becomes very obvious with more complex music when lot's of stuff is going on at the same time, but is harder to spot if you listen to simple tracks. Soundstage is exactly the size of the stage, you can shrink by pushing speakers together or aim for a large stage if you are into horn based setup.
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