[Relayer71]

Quote:

Originally Posted by megawzrd I doubt it will compare to any original sp stuff if it ever materializes. 95% of drummers are a dime a dozen to a band. A bassists' change doesn't hurt to much either...but you mess with the lead guitarist and the signature tone is usually gone. I don't expect much from this. Maybe thats my lead guitarist ego tallking...but I know that any band with the guitarist change is likely doomed. Only super hardcore fans will follow the band into obscurity.

Wow, I can't disagree with this MORE. This IS ego talking.

An excellent drummer DOES add to the overall sound of any band, more so than any lead guitarist can. Sure, there are a lot of mediocre sounding drummers and with this I agree, but you can't say a lead guitarist is more important.

I would rather listen to an album with excellent drumming and mediocre guitar playing than vice versa, any day. Lead guitar playing doesn't carry an entire song.

As for Smashing Pumpkins, Chamberlain (can't remember his first name atm) was in the 5% of very good drummers. His playing on Siamese Dream is fluid, dynamic, energetic and distinctive and made Billy's songs sound more interesting than they really were. He's no Bill Bruford or Neil Peart but he's far from being just average.

As for lead guitar, wasn't it Billy Corgan that played all the solos?

But I do agree that sometimes there is ONE component of a band that when taken away makes the band far less interesting, but I wouldn't say drummers or bassists are automatically it. It usually depends on the band. Can you imagine RUSH with Mike Mills from R.E.M. on bass or TOOL with that drummer from Def Leopard?

Nothing against R.E.M though, they're great (Lifes Rich Pageant on my top 10 of all time!). They're just not the most technically proficient musicians.

 

[catachresis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relayer71 Nothing against R.E.M though, they're great (Lifes Rich Pageant on my top 10 of all time!). They're just not the most technically proficient musicians.

Don't you talk bad about REM! I'll tell Michael Stipe, and he won't share his nail polish with you!

 

[megawzrd]

I can say that a lead guitarist is more important...it is nothing more than my opinion and perspective in music. I was also very careful in choosing a percentage...The yang to my yin is such that there are only about 5% drummers out there that are vital to the band. I don't believe the complexity of the rythym provided by chamberlain (jimmy btw) was anything special...throw in another drummer and it would still be smashing pumpkins (to me).

Who may be in this 5% realm though...drummers like portnoy, peart, bonham, etc...Legends. Why are they legends becuase they are innovators who carry their own signature style with them. And no...lead guitar does not "carry" the song but more importantly it tells the story as a counterpoint to the vocalist (lyricist). Oh btw...I have a huge respect for drumming and I drum myself, but you have to be something pretty special to be an excellent drummer. There is a reason that saying exists, I did not make it up, I just added my percentage to it..."drummers are a dime a dozen."

Heres a couple of examples for two of the bands I have followed since my youth:

Ozzy
I only think hes was great with rhoads and iommi. The other albums were one hit wonders with the 3 or 4 other guitarists he had (Lee, Wydle and a couple of others I can't remember). It didn't matter who was drumming but Ozzy was best with Black Sabbath or with Randy Rhoads.

Megadeth:
This one is tricky because Mustaine was lead guitarist for metallica who then picked up Hammett and went on to conquer (and yes lars is overrated). But Megadeth had three very good eras. They started off with Lars Sameulson on drums with chris poland for k.i.m.b. and peace sells . Then there was jeff young on guitar and chuck behler on drums for one album (decent). They peaked with Friedman as lead guitarist and Nick Menza on Drums on rust in peace and countdown. After Nick Menza left on drums...DeGrasso took over. They produced risk before friedman left and it still sounded like megadeth. With Petrelli on guitar they fell apart it wasn't megadeth anymore, they leads didn't have that flare anymore.

Oh yeah megadeth's last album "the system has failed" was actually decent...why becuase chris poland came back to record leads for the album in the studio.

Anyways I guess we will have to wait and see what happens with sp. But I still expect nothing special from this new album.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relayer71 Wow, I can't disagree with this MORE. This IS ego talking. An excellent drummer DOES add to the overall sound of any band, more so than any lead guitarist can. Sure, there are a lot of mediocre sounding drummers and with this I agree, but you can't say a lead guitarist is more important. I would rather listen to an album with excellent drumming and mediocre guitar playing than vice versa, any day. Lead guitar playing doesn't carry an entire song. As for Smashing Pumpkins, Chamberlain (can't remember his first name atm) was in the 5% of very good drummers. His playing on Siamese Dream is fluid, dynamic, energetic and distinctive and made Billy's songs sound more interesting than they really were. He's no Bill Bruford or Neil Peart but he's far from being just average. As for lead guitar, wasn't it Billy Corgan that played all the solos? But I do agree that sometimes there is ONE component of a band that when taken away makes the band far less interesting, but I wouldn't say drummers or bassists are automatically it. It usually depends on the band. Can you imagine RUSH with Mike Mills from R.E.M. on bass or TOOL with that drummer from Def Leopard? Nothing against R.E.M though, they're great (Lifes Rich Pageant on my top 10 of all time!). They're just not the most technically proficient musicians.

 

[allenf]

If it's just Billy & Jimmy C (& possibly D'Arcy) then it won't be much of a classic SP album.

Sounds like a brand exercise.
The titile of this thread got me feeling excited and nostalgic, but now I'm not so confident.

 

[AdamWill]

According to Billy, at least, he did most of the guitar work on Gish and Siamese Dream - they actually became more of a collaborative effort _after_ those two albums.

The whole "Smashing Pumpkins = BILLY and james" thing is a bit overstated, though, IMHO. There's been four solo albums released by Pumpkins members. I have Billy's, Jimmy's and James' - of the three, Jimmy's (The Jimmy Chamberlin Complex - Life Begins Again) is easily the best, and actually has Billy's best work since the Pumpkins split on it too (he contributed vocals for a track called Loki Cat). I haven't heard Melissa auf der Mar's yet, but it got very good reviews. Billy's was...okay...and James' was, no disrespect intended, happy-clappy hippy crap. The Pumpkins still had a lot of good stuff left in them at the very end (Machina II had some excellent stuff on it), so a new album could possibly be very good. Or it could suck. Hard to tell till it's done...

 

[taoster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catachresis I agree Spaceage, Gish was a nice, tough little indy rock album, but Siamese Dream was epic. I was never too keen on the strange hippy-affections for "Today," but the 2 lp set has got a raft of other great tunes. Years later, I got the Melon Colly and was miserable. It seemed over-wrought and thrown together -- but with more strings! I'd be astounded by the future appearance of anything close to Siamese Dream in SPs catalogue, but I'm not at all optimistic.

MELLON COLLIE is a really good album. You are missing out on some of their best works!

 

[allenf]

I tend to like each SP album in the same way that many U2 fans like their work - as a soundtrack to particular chapters of their lives.
Pisces is my fave, funnily enough.

 

[humzebra]

Maybe APC could employ of couple of the extra guitarists from Zwan and that way we could have the Reel Smashing Pumpkins back.

 

[fearless]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relayer71 ...or TOOL with that drummer from Def Leopard?

LOL

I shouldn't laugh, but I had to. I was picturing it my head.

I'll be looking forward to the upcomming material.

 

[Relayer71]

Quote:

Originally Posted by megawzrd I can say that a lead guitarist is more important...it is nothing more than my opinion. ... I don't believe the complexity of the rythym provided by chamberlain was anything special...throw in another drummer and it would still be smashing pumpkins s with sp

Your opinion...understood, everyone has one

But I still PARTIALLY disagree about Chamberlain. Like I said, he's no Bill Bruford or Neil Peart so his playing wasn't special, I agree with this.

But how would Siamese Dream have sounded with a more straight ahead (read: average) drummer such as Larry Mullen of U2 fame? I LOVE U2 but admit they're not the greatest musicians on the planet (originality points go to the Edge's sound/technique but he isn't Steve Howe).

If you're familiar with both SP and U2 it's pretty obvious that Chamberlain is a more musical and fluid drummer than Larry Mullen Jr. who to me is the epitome of "solid, basic, generic drummer", and you can see the point I'm making.

Chamberlain's playing on Siamese Dream has a certain musicality that fits THOSE particular songs. He's not flashy but his playing could be considered a notch above average. If average is 6, he'd be a 7 (Neil Peart an 11

).

And his above average playing fit Billy Corgan's above average guitar.

I love all of Billy's solos, they're very expressive (he does a great "modern Jimi", actually channels Jimi perfectly) but he isn't exactly breaking ground. And he isn't doing anything special rythmically/texturally. To me what stands out in a SP song are the guitar solos and drums. That's it. Vocals? Ha!. Bass? Ha, ha! Lyrics? Ok, but mostly "bleh".

Still love Siamese Dream as a whole though.

 

[Meyvn]

On a side note, does anyone know where I could get a decent sounding version of Machina II? I found a FLAC version on a torrent,but it's an extremely slow download, not to mention the fact that OS X doesn't support FLAC by default, and you have to go through this weird UNIX crap to get it to work.

 

[gdpeck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zotjen Am I the only one that thinks Gish was just as good if not better than Siamese Dream?

No. I think Gish is better.