The Upcoming FiiO T3 | Dual SD slot | 3.2 inch full touch screen | Optical/Coaxial/USB digital output | Slim design | APT-X | TYPE C |
Jul 9, 2016 at 10:33 AM Post #901 of 1,222
Good to see Apt-X in a Fiio product does come in Handy in the car although Android Auto would be nice through the USB.But I guess a sim card would be needed. I asked the Fiio team to add aptx a while back. However APT-X HD would be even better. I know this is rare at present but later on in the year it will feature in most top end Android devices.
 
Jul 10, 2016 at 9:05 AM Post #902 of 1,222
How much is known about this product? I'm considering to buy Chord Mojo, and this could possibly be a very nifty companion to it. Will it be Android based, or otherwise support streaming services like Tidal? That would be #1 selling point for me, along with good amount of storage space.
 
Jul 10, 2016 at 3:20 PM Post #903 of 1,222
  How much is known about this product? I'm considering to buy Chord Mojo, and this could possibly be a very nifty companion to it. Will it be Android based, or otherwise support streaming services like Tidal? That would be #1 selling point for me, along with good amount of storage space.


If it is Android based, then I'm going to want to see a definitive statement from FiiO that they have COMPLETELY bypassed the Android Audio stack and are interfacing directly to the digital outputs in a non-resampled, bit-perfect fashion or I'll be passing on the thing.
 
Since TIDAL uses the default audio stack, for that to work, it'd need a dedicated client.
 
I'm not going to mess about with things like UAPP either.  It's a great app for what it is, but I'm not buying a dedicated transport to deal with the few shortcomings it does have.
 
Jul 10, 2016 at 5:58 PM Post #904 of 1,222
If it is Android based, then I'm going to want to see a definitive statement from FiiO that they have COMPLETELY bypassed the Android Audio stack and are interfacing directly to the digital outputs in a non-resampled, bit-perfect fashion or I'll be passing on the thing.
 
Since TIDAL uses the default audio stack, for that to work, it'd need a dedicated client.
 
I'm not going to mess about with things like UAPP either.  It's a great app for what it is, but I'm not buying a dedicated transport to deal with the few shortcomings it does have.

 
My feelings exactly.
 
I had high hopes for Android based DAPs but having owned FiiO (briefly) and Onkyo (currently), I'm somewhat disappointed with the results.
 
I also have in mind a possible T3 / Mojo pairing but inclined to think I'd like a simple non-Android OS for the T3 to host my main music library, and I'd use a separate Android phone or iPod touch for streaming duties.
 
Jul 11, 2016 at 8:47 AM Post #905 of 1,222
If it is Android based, then I'm going to want to see a definitive statement from FiiO that they have COMPLETELY bypassed the Android Audio stack and are interfacing directly to the digital outputs in a non-resampled, bit-perfect fashion or I'll be passing on the thing.

Since TIDAL uses the default audio stack, for that to work, it'd need a dedicated client.

I'm not going to mess about with things like UAPP either.  It's a great app for what it is, but I'm not buying a dedicated transport to deal with the few shortcomings it does have.

Fully agreed.
James FiiO replied 'Of course' (yes) when I asked about bit perfect (previous page).
Rgds.
 
Jul 11, 2016 at 9:30 AM Post #906 of 1,222
But I remember James said it wouldn't be Android if we wanted long battery life. I guess if FiiO can come up with an agressive RAM implementation i.e. only one task running and none in the background, battery life can last longer?
 
Jul 11, 2016 at 10:08 AM Post #907 of 1,222
Personally I avoid bit-perfect audio devices like the plague. All audio transducers and listening environments (speakers, headphones, living rooms, etc.) suffer from many forms of distortion, be they frequency response aberrations, phase misalignment (e.g. multi-driver headphones / speakers with crossovers), nonlinear distortions at the extremes of driver excursion, unwanted excess reverb and exaggerated modal frequencies in the case of listening rooms, the list goes on and on. Or how about for headphones, just the fact that a lot of music meant to be played through speakers spread 60 degrees in front of you are being played through a pair of drivers clamped on your head instead?

Many, many of these aberrations can be corrected to large extent by preprocessing the digital audio to be sent out in real time.

In my years of listening and testing it has been my experience that if the audio to be played back is still totally unprocessed (or as you would say, bit-perfect) by the time it is to be converted by the DAC to be amplified and played back by the speakers / headphones, then 90% of the fight for high fidelity has already been lost.

Why does practically no-one ever understand this?

Heck, even UAPP has added an advanced parametric EQ in recent versions. Would the number of audiophiles who make good use of it need to be counted on the fingers of more than one hand anytime in the future?
 
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Jul 11, 2016 at 10:14 AM Post #908 of 1,222
Personally I avoid bit-perfect audio devices like the plague. All audio transducers and listening environments (speakers, headphones, living rooms, etc.) suffer from many forms of distortion, be they frequency response aberrations, phase misalignment (e.g. multi-driver headphones / speakers with crossovers), nonlinear distortions at the extremes of driver excursion, unwanted excess reverb and exaggerated modal frequencies in the case of listening rooms, the list goes on and on. Or how about for headphones, just the fact that a lot of music meant to be played through speakers spread 60 degrees in front of you are being played through a pair of drivers clamped on your head instead?

Many, many of these aberrations can be corrected to large extent by preprocessing the digital audio to be sent out in real time.

In my years of listening and testing it has been my experience that if the audio to be played back is still totally unprocessed (or as you would say, bit-perfect) by the time it is to be converted by the DAC to be amplified and played back by the speakers / headphones, 90% of the fight for high fidelity has already been lost.

Why does practically no-one ever understand this?

Heck, even UAPP has added an advanced parametric EQ in recent versions.


So what do you suggest the processing in the transport to be? The 'problem' with Android is it resamples everything to 48kHz. Unless you use a 3rd party app like UAPP. But other 3rd party apps use Android native Android resampling to 48kHz.
 
Jul 11, 2016 at 12:00 PM Post #909 of 1,222
Personally I avoid bit-perfect audio devices like the plague. All audio transducers and listening environments (speakers, headphones, living rooms, etc.) suffer from many forms of distortion, be they frequency response aberrations, phase misalignment (e.g. multi-driver headphones / speakers with crossovers), nonlinear distortions at the extremes of driver excursion, unwanted excess reverb and exaggerated modal frequencies in the case of listening rooms, the list goes on and on. Or how about for headphones, just the fact that a lot of music meant to be played through speakers spread 60 degrees in front of you are being played through a pair of drivers clamped on your head instead?

Many, many of these aberrations can be corrected to large extent by preprocessing the digital audio to be sent out in real time.

In my years of listening and testing it has been my experience that if the audio to be played back is still totally unprocessed (or as you would say, bit-perfect) by the time it is to be converted by the DAC to be amplified and played back by the speakers / headphones, then 90% of the fight for high fidelity has already been lost.

Why does practically no-one ever understand this?

Heck, even UAPP has added an advanced parametric EQ in recent versions. Would the number of audiophiles who make good use of it need to be counted on the fingers of more than one hand anytime in the future?

 
While all the issues you refer to are real, no one, anywhere, is addressing all of them in any current shipping product - let alone on the portable side of things. Companies like Linn, Devialet and Meridian do a creditable job with a lot of those issues.  Linn do it, for example, by measuring every speaker they make at the factory and then having the necessary correction profiles downloadable by their Exakt engine.  They also handle some basic room-mode correction.  Devialet do something similar, but just with speaker correction.  Meridian works on in-room measurements (or did the last time I owned their higher-end stuff).
 
But none of this is done at the transport ... it's either in dedicated boxes (e.g. the DEQX stuff) or it's in integrated streamer/transport/DAC/amp or DAC/amp/speaker units.
 
I do not want my transport mangling my audio before it's even gotten to a device that can do something useful with it.  If you can build a transport that can address all those things, properly, great ... but it doesn't exist yet and the options to do it are all large, expensive and decidedly non-portable.
 
From a simple logic perspective, I want to preserve as much of the original data, un-molested, until it gets to a device that CAN do something usefully corrective/adaptive with it.  And that's not ANY portable device today that's smaller than a laptop.
 
And with Android, we're not just talking about NOT doing those GOOD things that you describe, we're talking about a system that, as standard (and, as it happens even in custom solutions) tends towards a lowest-common-denominator, optimized-for-power-use-not-quality, general purpose, half-assed ASRC process that exists purely to simplify the device designers life and reduce the parts count and certainly NOT to render quality audio.
 
The vast majority of these devices don't even bother to run the clocks necessary not to have audible artifacts in output even when sample rate conversion isn't required.  The standard conversions in the AOSP do non-integer interpolations with are inherently lossy, because they have to shift everything to match a sub-optimal clock frequency.
 
It's lazy, cheap, nasty and doesn't sound good.
 
We're talking about portable devices here, many of which don't have enough grunt to run their UIs fluidly let alone the massive overhead that comes with the type of processing required to even partially address SOME of the points you're raising.  Even the EQ solutions on some of these units leaves a lot to be desired.
 
So, until that can all be addressed PROPERLY, I'll keep my output bit-perfect thanks - and I'll defer any other processing to devices that CAN do a decent job of it.
 
Jul 11, 2016 at 1:02 PM Post #910 of 1,222
In my years of listening and testing it has been my experience that if the audio to be played back is still totally unprocessed (or as you would say, bit-perfect) by the time it is to be converted by the DAC to be amplified and played back by the speakers / headphones, then 90% of the fight for high fidelity has already been lost.


Whereas once DSP is engaged, 100% of that fight is lost.

The damage done by DSP can never be undone and sounds unnatural and fatiguing.
 
Jul 11, 2016 at 1:14 PM Post #911 of 1,222
While all the issues you refer to are real, no one, anywhere, is addressing all of them in any current shipping product - let alone on the portable side of things. [my bold--Joe]

Companies like Linn, Devialet and Meridian do a creditable job with a lot of those issues.  Linn do it, for example, by measuring every speaker they make at the factory and then having the necessary correction profiles downloadable by their Exakt engine.  They also handle some basic room-mode correction.  Devialet do something similar, but just with speaker correction.  Meridian works on in-room measurements (or did the last time I owned their higher-end stuff).

But none of this is done at the transport ... it's either in dedicated boxes (e.g. the DEQX stuff) or it's in integrated streamer/transport/DAC/amp or DAC/amp/speaker units.


Sorry--this T3 discussion thread may not have been the most relevant place for me to put in my little rant above--I was just having a bad mood as a result of incessant bickering over a not-quite-bit-perfect digital loopback recording session...

As a theoretical matter, there's no reason why a transport can't produce bit-perfect output while a DSP box down the line processes the signal in the manner I describe before it is DAC-converted. And you're right, the non-bit-perfectness of Android does not usually relate to any processing of this manner.

But I've found that as a matter of practicality, bit-perfect transporting of bits and DSP processing are usually at odds with each other.

For example, at home I use a digital loopback to VSTHost for processing the audio. And while I use WASAPI in foobar, what happens after that on the way to the final digital output is decidedly non-bit-perfect, even if I don't apply any processing.

As a portable example, there are actually many system-wide audio DSP programs that can be used for doing the stuff you mention above (that you suppose to be strictly the domain of big desktop solutions). I use one such program to load impulse response correction profiles I create for my headphones--you could just as well use it to load profiles for loudspeakers of the sort you might find in a Linn or a DSPeaker Anti-Node etc. But as a practical matter, such processing can only occur at a fixed sample rate--otherwise you'd have to reprogram the DSP for every possible incoming sample rate. This was true even for commercial-grade home DSP solutions like Audyssey MultEQ XT32 (which was fixed at 48kHz).

And as a matter of principle, a system-level DSP solution for Android can only function on audio that passes through the Android audio system, i.e. the single-sample-rate all-SRCing decidedly-non-bit-perfect 44/48kHz stream, warts and all.

Anyway, this probably isn't the best place to discuss this issue, as the T3 is a "transport" after all. I'd expressed similar sentiments in an old thread here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/782131/why-high-res-audio-is-bad-for-music-take-2

Maybe we can talk about this there if anyone is interested.
 
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Jul 11, 2016 at 1:52 PM Post #912 of 1,222
Personally I avoid bit-perfect audio devices like the plague. All audio transducers and listening environments (speakers, headphones, living rooms, etc.) suffer from many forms of distortion, be they frequency response aberrations, phase misalignment (e.g. multi-driver headphones / speakers with crossovers), nonlinear distortions at the extremes of driver excursion, unwanted excess reverb and exaggerated modal frequencies in the case of listening rooms, the list goes on and on. Or how about for headphones, just the fact that a lot of music meant to be played through speakers spread 60 degrees in front of you are being played through a pair of drivers clamped on your head instead?

Many, many of these aberrations can be corrected to large extent by preprocessing the digital audio to be sent out in real time.

In my years of listening and testing it has been my experience that if the audio to be played back is still totally unprocessed (or as you would say, bit-perfect) by the time it is to be converted by the DAC to be amplified and played back by the speakers / headphones, then 90% of the fight for high fidelity has already been lost.

Why does practically no-one ever understand this?

Heck, even UAPP has added an advanced parametric EQ in recent versions. Would the number of audiophiles who make good use of it need to be counted on the fingers of more than one hand anytime in the future?

 
Come on! 
 
We want the best DSPs out there. Bit Perfect is for heretics! 
biggrin.gif

 
Joking aside, bit perfect does not exist. Cannot exist. Or rather, nothing cannot be perfectly reproduced after we enter analogue domain. It is because of the design of circuitry. In theory, the same song is not the same when it is played two times, but we never hear the differences. We should focus on developing the best DSPs out there, not avoid them. The quantity of DSP used when recording and mastering music is amazing. I mean, almost all music goes through DSP before being released to public. 
 
Now my question is: Can we make a real time DSP that will make music even better? Yes, of course we can. Then we should. 
 
But bit perfect should be there for the situation one wants it. My fiio X5ii sounds better than my cowon J3 used to sound with all enhancements in J3. Sometimes the circuit itself, power, op-amps, buffers are better, but we should always search to add DSPs over the best of the best, always improve what we hear. 
 
About Fiio T3, it should have a bit perfect mode, and be able to activate DSPs. So far, we don't have DSPs that are not circuit controlled and sound good. I.E. We don't have perfect software DSPs that will work on a portable device. Mastering tools that process music losslessly need a lot of processing power to work their best. We will have this on portable sooner or later too. But until then, a source really needs an EQ, as many many headphones out there need EQ to reach the signature we want. When there will be a perfect headphone or IEM, then we won't need DSP. But even on the best headphones, a song can be mastered to sound better, by the usage of DSP. 
 
Jul 11, 2016 at 2:09 PM Post #913 of 1,222
Dear Fiio.
 
Please for the love of God make the T3 so that it can be attached to an external DAC/amp without the damn rubberbands covering half of the screen.
 
Sincerely,
Guy who had to tape the E18 to the back of the phone case
 
Jul 12, 2016 at 10:27 AM Post #914 of 1,222
Whereas once DSP is engaged, 100% of that fight is lost.

The damage done by DSP can never be undone and sounds unnatural and fatiguing.


What a load of rubbish... A DSP is merely a tool, it can change the sound in any way you want if you know how to use it. If it is making music unnatural or fatiguing you are doing it wrong. My Dspeaker Antimode Dual Core 2.0 has given me the best sound with my speakers that I have ever heard by correcting my room modes; the difference is both clear and definitive when you switch between bypass and active.
 
Jul 12, 2016 at 10:37 AM Post #915 of 1,222
What a load of rubbish... A DSP is merely a tool, it can change the sound in any way you want if you know how to use it. If it is making music unnatural or fatiguing you are doing it wrong. My Dspeaker Antimode Dual Core 2.0 has given me the best sound with my speakers that I have ever heard by correcting my room modes; the difference is both clear and definitive when you switch between bypass and active.

 
I completely agree with this! 
 
DSPs are used all the time when actually producing the music we love so much. 
 
DSPs mean making music better, or worse, depends on how it is used. 
 

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