[warrior1975]

Unless they put a nice dac and effort into making it sound good, pointless. It actually contradicts the point of being a transport.

 

[Topspin70]

Unless they put a nice dac and effort into making it sound good, pointless. It actually contradicts the point of being a transport.

Exactly. Like you and many others before me, I emphasised the basic concept of a transport is no DAC/amp. And people came in and say don't bother it's futile. Then the winning reply came from FiiO who had the best suggestion: just PRETEND the DAC/amp isn't there (see post #488). Haha.

 

[warrior1975]

I don't understand why anyone would want an amp and/or dac, it's supposed to be a transport, we choose our amp and dac. If you want something that has dac and amp, there are plenty to choose from. Fiio alone has several.

 

[Topspin70]

Market size. FiiO thinks it will sell more units this way. It's a businessman decision. Not an audiophile decision. 
 
How it competes with the company's own range of DAPs and the competitors remains to be seen, but I'm think using the word 'transport' loosely is the apparent solution. 

 

[warrior1975]

Then they shouldn't call it a transport per se. Doesn't late sense to me

 

[Topspin70]

Welcome to the club! 
 
FiiO probably thinks this is a pretty small club. And they may be right. The head-fi population isn't made up of all audiophiles. There are many casual users and iPhone upgraders. They won't care about signal path or signal integrity. They just want something cool, new, sounds great, and is packed full of high-tech sonic jargon. They want it cheap so they can buy, sell and try something else. It'll be years, if ever, before they get to a point where they demand a transport to be just that, a transport. 
 
As you can see from this thread, there are a lot of supporters despite the dac/amp. And that's just this thread. Imagine the potential market out there in the world. So they are playing their sales card right, much to our loss.

 

[warrior1975]

Yes they are. Personally it doesn't matter much to me, I just am confused why call it a transport. Also wondering what it will sound like. Are they going to be money and effort into this to make it sound decent?

 

[FizzlePop]

English is not James's first language, obviously, so give him some slack. He did get the terminology correct once: 
 
Quote:

DAP which designed as transport

 
In other words, "a DAP with transport features."
 
The reactions to DAPs and phones using the integrated Sabre chips have been pretty good. Honestly, I think people will be surprised how good this will sound. 

 

[Brooko]

  As you can see from this thread, there are a lot of supporters despite the dac/amp. And that's just this thread. Imagine the potential market out there in the world. So they are playing their sales card right, much to our loss.

 
Why to "your loss"?  This is the bit I can't get.  If it still has everything you could possibly want in terms of storage, usability and inputs/outputs - what do you care if it has a dac/amp included. Where does it hurt you?  Like James said - ignore the feature.
 
But for some of us - having that ability suddenly makes this a very viable option.
 
There are no reasonably priced DAPs out there at the moment with a decent UI, up to 1 Tb of storage, and the ability to scale up by adding an uber DAC or even just an amp.
 
FiiO's decision makes sense. Most DACs nowadays are capable of reasonably high-res, and good quality output - and that includes the options FiiO has been considering (on chip). For you guys with your Mojos etc - you can still add your device and be happy. But with a half reasonable DAC and amp - I then have:

1. A device for my car
2. A device for taking anywhere - whether I have a separate dac/amp or not
3. A device I can simply add an amp to
4. A device I can use solely as a transport

 
Why should other people miss out just because a small group of audiophiles decide its not cool to include a relatively low cost dac/amp solution - because they insist on transport only.  The extra sales to people not hung up on the transport only thing will lower the manufacturing cost so that you won't notice the cost of the dac and amp.
 
And it is a FiiO product - when have they made something which doesn't sound decent?
 
Bottom line - if it is a transport only - I would not buy it. It would not have the value proposition for my uses.  If they include a reasonably decent on chip dac/amp solution - then I would buy it.  The guys saying if they include a dac/amp means it isn't a transport - so what?  You can still use it as one.  And it still has your features.  And it will still represent one of the best low cost, high feature devices around which can be used as a transport.
 
I would have thought win-win would be the best solution for everyone, and most of all for FiiO.

 

[warrior1975]

I hope you are right.

BTW, I know English isn't his first language, but it's not about his terminology. The X3, X5, the newer versions, and the X7 are all daps, which have digital out, but they are just called daps. My point is what is the difference between this dap with "transport" features, and those?

 

[FizzlePop]

I hope you are right.

BTW, I know English isn't his first language, but it's not about his terminology. The X3, X5, the newer versions, and the X7 are all daps, which have digital out, but they are just called daps. My point is what is the difference between this dap with "transport" features, and those?

None except that it's being designed with the idea that most users will strap it to something else. Which means they can use the extra PCB space -- that would have otherwise occupied the amp and DAC components -- to add larger storage slots. Heat and battery life will be less of an issue now, too, so (presumably) they can make it thinner than the X DAPs. 

 

[warrior1975]

But if they add dac and amp, there won't be any free space...

Brooko-personally I don't really care either way, I was just trying to understand what the logic was behind it. Also concerned that if they do include a dac and amp, would it not be of acceptable quality and possibly give Fiio a bad name. Or if they include it, would it drive the price up too much possibly for the average person that just wants it as a transport.

I'm all for fiio, I'm a big fan of them, having owned several of their products. I want the to succeed, more so than any other electronics company here because I like the way they do business. James also seem to be a great guy, that cares about his customers, looks to the community for advice and feedback, etc.

I was also a little excited that it was a transport, as they would be perfect for what I'm lookin for right now. Reading it has a dac and an amp, puts it back in a DAP category to me. Just friendly discussion anyway. Sharing thoughts and views.

 

[Brooko]

No that's Ok - the debate has been rehashed a few times anyway.
 
James has already said that it won't compromise cost, or size.  Look at what they built into the M3 if you'd like an example 

 

[FizzlePop]

But if they add dac and amp, there won't be any free space...

 
Quote:

   
all our DAPs includes very complex DAC, AMP and not to talk the power supply.  here is something you can learn how complex they are. 
 

 
the number shows how many ICs are used and how many different power supply for the ICs.  as you can see, it is quite easy to put a ES9118 into the transport and them it will not make big difference in size and power . 
 

 
ES9118 is a new chip, so I can't find any real photos of it yet. But if it's anything like the other integrated Sabres it's probably tiny and very affordable. 

 

[Topspin70]

None except that it's being designed with the idea that most users will strap it to something else. Which means they can use the extra PCB space -- that would have otherwise occupied the amp and DAC components -- to add larger storage slots. Heat and battery life will be less of an issue now, too, so (presumably) they can make it thinner than the X DAPs. 

Then that should be called a thin, high storage DAP not a transport. Our dispute isn't that it doesn't benefit people. As you pointed out. It does so very well. The point is calling it a transport. You actually think a CEO of a hifi company will get that wrong cuz it's not his first language? It's business its sales its marketing. And you're right why care. Which reminds me: I should resume designing that car that's also a motorbike.