[Stoin]

After reading the article I do have a few issues (not related to the translation). Here are some of those:

Firstly, and as already mentioned, the author has effectively stated their conclusions in the opening paragraph (and even the title) through their choice of tone.

The numbers used in places seem to be plucked from nowhere, with no justification. Why are they driving their speakers with 80W?

The speakers mentioned are 8 Ohm. Fine, it is a reasonable value. But, the author seems to regard this as a constant and it never seems to change. In fact the impedance of a speaker varies with frequency.

There are other faults with the article, but these alone would stop it from being published in a journal. One of the problems with any debate such as this is the use of the word "science" this article is not written in a scientific manner and has no supporting evidence or references for the claims it makes and values used. It also makes no attempt to mention other factors that may have an influence, but which were not studied. It presents everything as fact and if you don't believe the author then you are a fool.

I don't buy £1000 cables, nor am I likely to. I do believe that CAT5 cable can be used very effectively for wiring up loudspeakers. I'm not exactly certain on my views on cables (although I don't use freebies), but I do know that articles such as this add no knowledge to the debate, only opinion.

In fairness to the OP, they never said it would be scientific, but that they had translated an article and to that end they've done a good job.

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoin /img/forum/go_quote.gif After reading the article I do have a few issues (not related to the translation). Here are some of those: Firstly, and as already mentioned, the author has effectively stated their conclusions in the opening paragraph (and even the title) through their choice of tone. The numbers used in places seem to be plucked from nowhere, with no justification. Why are they driving their speakers with 80W? The speakers mentioned are 8 Ohm. Fine, it is a reasonable value. But, the author seems to regard this as a constant and it never seems to change. In fact the impedance of a speaker varies with frequency. There are other faults with the article, but these alone would stop it from being published in a journal. One of the problems with any debate such as this is the use of the word "science" this article is not written in a scientific manner and has no supporting evidence or references for the claims it makes and values used. It also makes no attempt to mention other factors that may have an influence, but which were not studied. It presents everything as fact and if you don't believe the author then you are a fool. I don't buy £1000 cables, nor am I likely to. I do believe that CAT5 cable can be used very effectively for wiring up loudspeakers. I'm not exactly certain on my views on cables (although I don't use freebies), but I do know that articles such as this add no knowledge to the debate, only opinion. In fairness to the OP, they never said it would be scientific, but that they had translated an article and to that end they've done a good job.

When I first read this article I also thought the tone was not the best one, if they were trying to convince the believers, but after a long time reading other members of this site that try to prove those differences with nothing but experience I believe the tone is good enough.

About why they drive their speaker with 80 Watts I can't tell you precisely, as my knowledge on speaker systems is yet very limited. I think it is because speakers need a lot of power. For example people from that site than in the majority have speaker systems use the following amplifier (not all of them): BEHRINGER: A500 @ 500W

Then I think he always uses the 8 Ohm value as a constant in order not to extend himself so much with the explanation. I think i said this before but this article is not purely scientific. If it were very little people here would be able to understand it, and for me it would have been even harder to translate. If it were also scientific it would have to be inmensly long, and if their main intention is to be able to be understood by the average Joe (it was from a magazine), then I would not expect getting into every detail. However I think, even if this is the case, that not much more is needed in order to make things clear about cables.

Then to the part of not mentioning other factors that MAY have influence is (i think) because there might not be, or if they were they scape our human limitations.

For the last sentence I have to disagree. I think they add more knowledge than any person here with experience has to offer. If you digg into another thread where there is a poll about cables being snake oil, you will see the reaction of believers.

I am not here, nor I decided to translate this article to tell you what you can think or not. I translated it so that other people who only had the view of the believers, based on experience (something that can have so many flaws), to have another point of view, with some data, so that they can decide what to do.

I also encourage everyone to think about why they might have heard a difference when using a cable. To just be more aware of what they are doing.
SO that if they hear something they stop for one second, think about what could have made cable A sound better than cable B (usually output levels not matched exactly, or not having a switch that allowed them to compare two things and just using their hearing memory...) instead of hearing more volume (I think it is one of the reasons that makes people believe it sounds better, plus aesthetics and the need of approving an expensive buy that gives absolutely nothing) and accepting it has to be the cable.

Then to give another explanation for why they hear "bass extension, soundstage opening, etc" I think it is because every time you hear a song you place your attention in different parts of the music. If before you had not heard some drums, and later (being the coincidence that you have just swapped cables) you do, people would think it has to do with the cables. I have had the same experience but not changing a cable, just by running the same song twice. I focused on other parts of the music, other instruments.

I think it also tends to happen if the music is more complex. But well, that is my opinion and you can think my ideas are plausible or not.

Anyways I hope you read more and decide which side of the fence you are going to stay. You can also accept both cases and wait for other articles. Oh, also check this thread in some time as I will update it with more articles I found, including more DBTs and ABX tests.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyways I hope you read more and decide which side of the fence you are going to stay.

Stoin, join the good side! We need everyone we can get.

.

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stoin, join the good side! We need everyone we can get. .

Lool

Well I would say you a) work for a cable company, or b) you have spent so much money on cables you can't accept cables do not make a difference

 

[Stoin]

Bullseye, I agree with most of your points, it's just that to me I would never regard a magazine or other non peer-reviewed article as fact. I regard these as opinion, in some cases very well informed opinion, but not factual. Obviously writing a massive, in depth article and publishing it in a journal would put it beyond most people - hell, most people don't even have access to journal articles outside of academia.

A few good scientific papers on the phenomenon of cable sound signatures (psychoacoustic, physical, or magical), read by some knowledgeable head-fiers might add some real knowledge to the community. They may even manage to bring an end to some of the cable threads.

The article in question could never convince me because of the writing style. It just gives the impression that the author has an axe to grind (just like the pro-cable lobby). Scientific articles are often written by people who have an axe to grind, but they hide it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stoin, join the good side! We need everyone we can get. .

It's nice to feel wanted. But seriously I would probably come down on the side of cables in proportion to the system (~5-15% of the total system cost). There is too much bad science trying to debunk the cables "make a difference" view and too much anecdotal evidence that they do matter to ignore out of hand. Plus, if I can afford a half-million pound system I'm not going to worry about a few grand on some cables.

 

[Real Man of Genius]

Choose One:

A) Believers: Placebo Ridden, Snake Oil Buying, Gullible, Delusional, Audiphool Snobs.

B) Non-Believers: Tin-Eared, Inexperienced, Crappy System, Scientific know-it-alls.

 

[Stoin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real Man of Genius /img/forum/go_quote.gif Choose One: A) Believers: Placebo Ridden, Snake Oil Buying, Gullible, Delusional, Audiphool Snobs. B) Non-Believers: Tin-Eared, Inexperienced, Crappy System, Scientific know-it-alls.

Sad, but seemingly true. Unless there is another option...

...maybe the majority of people don't want to get too worked up and obsessed with cables, but do want good sound from their system and are willing to take a punt and spend a moderate amount on a cable that might improve the sound (it should be cheaper than a new source, amp, or headphones).

These people may be put off from posting in cable threads because of the two aforementioned groups, A & B, who seem to take opposing cable views as something akin to insults against their mothers.

Just a thought

 

[Real Man of Genius]

I'm sorry, logical and reasonable posts are against this forum's TOS.
Any further displays of such blatant sensibleness will be dealt with in a severe manner.

 

[BIG POPPA]

What about acknowledging that cables have their place? With out them there is no sound out of the gear? And possibly they might sound a little different depending on the gear?

 

[komi]

Dunno, if anyone mention rhis, but - is simple answer to ALL questions :

James Randi Offers $1 Million If Audiophiles Can Prove $7250 Speaker Cables Are Better

 

[Bullseye]

Yeah, Komi, that was one of the things I was gonna update my first post with. Have more but that is also a good one.

I have the full thingy somewhere

 

[leaf]

To me, music is a matter of personal preference. Each part of the equipment can make a difference, and a question of percentage. As they always say, "hifi is a slippery road".

 

[BIG POPPA]

To me Hi-Fi is the last 1%, and cables is a part of that.

 

[sochee]

Personally, I think it's mostly placebo. Then again, placebo is used to treat medical conditions. That being said, I always regret the $100 I have spent on cables (so far), and I'm probably bound to spend more...

 

[leaf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sochee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Personally, I think it's mostly placebo. Then again, placebo is used to treat medical conditions. That being said, I always regret the $100 I have spent on cables (so far), and I'm probably bound to spend more...

Interesting analogy.