[TheGhostWhoWalks]

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Originally Posted by clarke68 The placebo affect goes both ways...I happen to love the way my system sounds with my cheap DIY/Radio Shack/"came free with my CD player" cables. I tried $900 interconnects and they made my system sound horrid. Peter Aczel isn't ignorant. He's dogmatic, crotchety, and downright mean at times, but not ignorant. His career as an audio journalist spans nearly 30 years, and has presented to the Audio Engineering Society (not many audio journalists can say that). I don't necessarily trust him any more than I trust Stereophile, but I appreciate his viewpoint simply because it is the complete opposite of practically every other publication in the high-end press.

The thing about cables are is... I'd say in a cheap system they aren't going to make a difference. And by "cheap" I mean in an audiophile sense. But it seems to me that in really high end system the really good cables really DO seem to make a difference. You've heard people talk about gear that is so transparent that reveal every flaw of your system? Well, these are the types of systems that need good cables. With a system like mine, it definitely benefits from cables. But with a starter audiophile system? No, regular cables would work just fine. And that's a GOOD thing.

And what's the deal with Stereophile? I've heard of them, but I've never been into audio magazines. I've always trusted my ears and the real friends (the ones who weren't out to sell meanything) I've met in this hobby over the years...

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

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Originally Posted by TheGhostWhoWalks You know, I remember taking my first good system up to my audiophile friend's house with my ICs, replacing them with his ICs, and being able to hear the difference for myself. The music was so much more transparent, less muddier, there was a bigger soundstage, fuller bass... I didn't WANT to believe it. His cables were $1500 and mine were the standard radioshack brand. So, what? My mind was playing a trick on me? I was hearing things I wasn't? It doesn't make any sense...

Maybe he had a better room?

 

[clarke68]

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Originally Posted by cotdt one thing we are overlooking here when talking about measurement equipment versus the human ear is that the human ear has a far greater dynamic range capability and far greater ability to tell apart different tones. machines are only better at recognizing distortion and a wider frequency response and that's it, the human ears are superior in every other respect.

The major (and well respected) audio companies did not develop their equipment using only their ears as a guide. Without exception, all the big (and very expensive in many cases) brands have been measured, probed, simulated, then measured some more - before anyone actually gets to hear one. How much of this pure research has gone into most of the overpriced cables and "accessories" currently available?

I'm actually quoting Rod Elliott here...I was going to paraphrase, but he said it better than I could.

 

[mrarroyo]

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Originally Posted by fewtch Why do people pick on the audio hobby, anyway? "What's with it with those stamp collectors? Books and books of stamps they can't even use to mail stuff! $5,000 for a stamp with an upside down picture, when they could have bought one for 37 cents with the picture rightside up! What's the use? It's a lie!" "Those automotive buffs... wasting mucho $$ on powerful engines when they all know the speed limit is only 55!" "Dumb watch collectors... they spend big bucks on an analog watch that tells even worse time than a $5.00 Casio!" "The big lie of pen collecting is that a $500 fountain pen is better than a $5.00 drugstore pen... don't let them fool you, your handwriting is identical no matter which pen you use!" Hmmm...

You are incorrect, the $500 fountain pen does not write better than the $5 drugstore pen. You must spend $1,000 on a fountain pen.

As you can tell I collect them, so I have no wallet.

 

[PhilS]

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Originally Posted by clarke68 The placebo affect goes both ways...I happen to love the way my system sounds with my cheap DIY/Radio Shack/"came free with my CD player" cables. I tried $900 interconnects and they made my system sound horrid.

Interesting. In terms or your reference to the placebo effect, are you saying that you expected the $900 interconnects to sound worse, and that is why you believe they sounded horrid? Because if you expected them to sound better, that would seem to undercut the placebo argument.

 

[TheGhostWhoWalks]

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Originally Posted by Rock&Roll Ninja Maybe he had a better room?

Doesn't really matter with headphones.

 

[K2Grey]

I would put forth the idea that it is difficult to determine what direction the placebo effect will go in because human psychology is a very complicated and messed up thing, with both conscious and unconscious stuff at work.

 

[Publius]

I don't find it especially odd that the placebo effect could cut both ways. Remember, people's perceptions of components are shaped by lots of things, only a few of which are "price" and "shininess".

 

[Sleestack]

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Originally Posted by TheGhostWhoWalks The thing about cables are is... I'd say in a cheap system they aren't going to make a difference. And by "cheap" I mean in an audiophile sense. But it seems to me that in really high end system the really good cables really DO seem to make a difference. You've heard people talk about gear that is so transparent that reveal every flaw of your system? Well, these are the types of systems that need good cables. With a system like mine, it definitely benefits from cables. But with a starter audiophile system? No, regular cables would work just fine. And that's a GOOD thing. ...

I have pretty high end gear all around (headphone, 2 channel and HT) and I just don't hear the differences. I have used everything from a full set of Cardas Golden Reference to more generic Cobalt cables and the differences elude me. I'm not saying that I believe or don't believe other people who do hear differences, but I'm not buying another set of Cardas Golden until my ears detect a difference. Likewise with power cords... there I just don't understand how a power cord could possibly make a difference, but I'm also not looking to judge other people's subjective impressions. IMO, if you hear a difference, that's what matters.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

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Originally Posted by Rock&Roll_Ninja Maybe he had a better room?

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Originally Posted by TheGhostWhoWalks Doesn't really matter with headphones.

Sure it does, if your room is directly across the sheetrock from some co-habitating twenty somethings.

"These Cardas cables really bring-out the airy highs on my albums, but theres this semi-regular rythmic "thumping" noise in the background. Which oddly keeps perfect tempo to R.Kelly's Bump n' Grind.

 

[PhilS]

Wait a second there boys and girls. The usual placebo phenomenon put forth is that, when someone buys an expensive cable, they expect it to sound better (since they spent more money, etc.), and therefore it does. If someone buys a more expensive cable, and it sounds worse to them, that is not the typical placebo effect we all talk about. Now maybe the guy didn't hear what he said he heard, and maybe there is some other psychological thingamabob going on, but if the argument is that when someone hears a difference in a cable, it is placebo or psychological no matter which way it cuts, that seems to me to be pretty darn weak argument (and pretty facile as well). IMO.

 

[tennisets]

With regards to placebo effect: I'd like to think that I'm not influenced by it, but I know that to not be true. Since I am influenced by it (as is everybody else, no matter what they say), I figure if I hear a difference, I hear a difference. Who cares if it's an imaginary difference, I still perceive the sound to be better. An upgrade is an upgrade, whether it be to my equipment or to my mind

.

People often say on these boards, "I can't believe people pay all that money for imaginary differences." Well I'll tell you what: If a piece of equipment makes a difference that's worth its price, I'll probably buy it, whether the difference is imaginary or not (of course if I did a blind test and heard no difference, I wouldn't pay, but in my experience things that make a difference can be easily picked out in blind tests). However, I haven't yet heard a piece of equipment that I thought made a difference that did not actually make a difference.

 

[rsaavedra]

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Originally Posted by Jashugan You'll learn theres no point in arguing.

What? I disagree!!

 

[clarke68]

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Originally Posted by PhilS Interesting. In terms or your reference to the placebo effect, are you saying that you expected the $900 interconnects to sound worse, and that is why you believe they sounded horrid? Because if you expected them to sound better, that would seem to undercut the placebo argument.

Actually, I suspect they sounded worse because the cable manufacturer did something to crank the cables' capacitance to make it easier for people to "hear a difference" (regardless of whether or not that difference was an improvement). I have no way to verify this.

As to the placebo effect...I just enjoy audio a lot more when it's cheap. I like my system because it sounds great and because it didn't cost an arm and a leg. I didn't do a complete psychological self-eval before listening to the fancy cables, but I probably expected/hoped they would sound the same as any other cables...I certainly didn't expect them to make the bass so muddy & indistinct.

 

[PhilS]

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Originally Posted by rsaavedra What? I disagree!!

LOL. Reminds me of that classic Monty Python sketch. "An arugment is not just disagreeing with whatever I say." Yes, it is." "No, it isn't." "Yes, it is."