[analogsurviver]

  @ analogsurviver,
 
That being the case, it's obvious [ IMO ] that Sennheiser when it comes to their new Orpheus, are only interested in pleasing a minority.
If Sennheiser did have any thoughts to the majority of us, then they'd [ again IMO ] do a more affordable stats headphone that could be used with any stats amp.

Not so fast.
 
I definitely do agree that 55K for headphones is TOO MUCH. Period. I can not afford them in this or other life, if such thing exists.
 
But I definitely disagree that backwards compatibility MUST be the prime criterion. What they did was the most clever thing possible - I did think of it back in the day, but there were no semiconductors around 1986 that could fullfill the requirements. Due to that, I simply - FORGOT about it over decades.... my bad.
 
As I most definitely do know and have heard stats that CAN ( whatever...), I do know that no conventional cabled stat is going to challenge the Orpheus 2 or any of the trickled down designs using the same configuration if and when they become available. Because it is the DRIVE, not the headphone alone, that ultimately determines the sound quality of the electrostatics.
 
How is that one about not shooting the messenger ? I merely told you all the truth.
 
And for those having concerns regarding voltage/current issue : it has been with the electrostatics since day one. The only thing is that manufacturers were EXTREMELY quiet about it, some were even making VERY misleading claims. Like the fact that DC polarising voltage (bias) , although being high in voltage, is always connected trough large value current limiting resistor - and is therefore safe. 
 
True.
 
They "conviniently" omited the fact that you have a full power amp on your head - trough the matching transformer - and THAT has zero limiting resistors if it wants to perform in decent manner.
 
And THAT is no longer guaranteed to be safe. Around 100 W/ch or more power amp trough transformer can be lethal. As noted before, this fact of life is downplayed - or not mentioned at all - by the manufacturers of electrostatic headphones.
 
I did not proceed with my design due to real - not imaginary - health hazard. Sennheiser has succeeded in driving the stats better and at safe voltage/current levels - in EU there is regulative how much can an electronic apparatus put out before it is considered dangerous and banned from possibility of sale if it exceeds those limits.
 
Sure, electrostatic headphones are insulated and overinsulated because of this - but there is always the possibility that all of the isolation(s) might once fail. Therefore, manufacturer HAS TO work with voltage/current combo low enough not to be dangerous EVEN IF ALL INSULATION FAILS.
 
And it is here that Sennheiser could improve upon the original Orpheus - in the DRIVE. Good enough and safe enough. Compared to this, everything else from ceramic stators etc, etc,etc is - bling. Not saying it does not contribute to excellence, but it most definitely is not the decisive factor.
 
Ask yourselves; if you were able to pull similar feat, in ANY field, would you worry about the backward compatibility - or people being able to use an otherwise proven to be superior product when used with all the "bells and whistles" designed specifically for it - in conventional, definitely inferior way ? My guess is you would try to PREVENT it in any way possible. 
 
I am not a millionaire or something; quite the contrary being the case. But I do recognize the technical excellence once I see it. Whether I can afford it or not is an entirely different matter. But given some time, a product featuring most of the Orpheus 2 meaningful solutions might see the day of life - at more manageable cost.
Like Baby O at say 7-8 K, everything included, you open the box by yourselves. That would be a reasonable proposition.

 

[superlowfi]

It's also interesting to consider the history of the original Orpheus and it's effect on Sennheiser's product range.
 
The HD650 could be seen as a direct child of the Orpheus, in a lineage that goes from HE90 -> HE60 -> HD600 -> HD650.
 
The musicality and sound signature of the HD650 I can see has shades of HE90 in it. 
 
I wonder if this new Orpheus is the first step of a sound signature that will proliferate into Sennheiser's product range.

 

[analogsurviver]

  It's also interesting to consider the history of the original Orpheus and it's effect on Sennheiser's product range.
 
The HD650 could be seen as a direct child of the Orpheus, in a lineage that goes from HE90 -> HE60 -> HD600 -> HD650.
 
The musicality and sound signature of the HD650 I can see has shades of HE90 in it. 
 
I wonder if this new Orpheus is the first step of a sound signature that will proliferate into Sennheiser's product range.

Well, maybe shades.
 
Acustomed to stats, I found HD-650 pretty underwhelming when they appeared. It is a good headphone, but...
 
The quality inherent in Orpheus 2 is not obtainable with conventional dynamic drivers a la HD-800 etc. Maybe something like HIFIMAN HE-1000 or variation thereoff - but conventional moving coil on some diaphragm - no.
 
That said, I have no problem listening with something as low on the "food chain" as Xiaomi Piston 2 at approx 20$. But I do not try to pretend it is equivalent or relative of something incomparably better and more expensive.

 

[judgmentday]

Just considering the fact that the original Orpheus costed $16K when they came out on 1990, that alone is almost $30K in today's dollars. I guess it is worth it to pay the almost $30K extra for those great features and enhancements over the original Orpheus.
 
I'm sure that all those wealthy individuals listed by the Forbes Magazine can purchase the new Orpheus 2 like me buying a chewing gum but I bet that none of them have the set of ears that I have. Honestly, I rather be poor like dirt with my golden ears than having all the money in the world and being deaf.
I'm sure a brat wealthy kid is going to purchase it to listening to his rap music iTunes, just like some 7 year old rich kid takes pictures with a $3K Canon 5D Mark III as he was taking pictures with his iphone.
Yes, high end audio equipment is very, very expensive!

 

[Kevinspeed]

It would be nice if they used this as a springboard to introduce a stat headphone that more people could afford.

 

[icebear]

It will be nice if they use ...

... got to think positive about the future!

 

[Sal1950]

   
There are a lot of people in this thread who assume that Sennheiser built this for a select few. That is wrong. Sennheiser built this for headphone lovers everywhere. 
 
We can debate and argue over their particular design decisions, but their goal was simply to develop the best headphone they could without budget constraints.
 
They built it for audio and headphone enthusiasts. 
 
Almost everyone on this forum will have an opportunity to hear this if they so choose. Sennheiser will be parading this system around as a source of company pride for decades to come, they still trot out the HE90/HEV90 which is now over twenty years old.
 
They didn't even really have to sell any consumer units. Imagine as a thought experiment they simply built the unit for touring around and didn't offer any for sale to customers. Would that somehow be "better"? If anything they are doing headphone enthusiasts a favour by offering it for sale for those select few that have the inclination to spend that much on a headphone system, but it's clear this wasn't really designed from the start to be a mass market product and that is kind of the point.

+1  You seem to get the point that so many are missing.  Thanks Sennheiser for doing the R and D to bring us your best shot at the ultimate SOTA headphone system you know how to  build. Yes few can afford it, I never will. but that's true about every product category in high end audio. I'll never own a Continuum or Onedof $200,000 turntable, or a Naim $240,000 amp,  Wilson Alexandria $210,000 speakers, etc, etc, etc.  You know you could lose $2 million in a SOTA system real fast today.
Crazy, yep.  Might some be over priced, yep.  But that's just the cost of having the VERY BEST in High End and it's  no different than lots of other big boy toys. Ya got to have the cash to play. I don't.  

 

[judgmentday]

Sennheiser makes a good point that still a headphone setup costs only peanuts in comparison to a 2 channel home stereo system. In a 2 channel home stereo system still you have to spend serious money for a suitable audio room. Depending on what part the world, materials, engineering, contractors, etc. It could costs hundreds of thousands of dollars!.

 

[VGoghs earfrmsc]

If I go into a shop and I'm asked, "what headphones would I like to hear, those I can afford or those I'll never be able to afford," I know what my answer would be.

 

[superlowfi]

I'm not sure how many people here heard the original Orpheus, while it is a good nice sound, it was more produced to be something legitimately different. It is in no way shape or form the best headphone ever made for every single ear. I dare say even if it was priced at 1/10 what it is currently priced at the interest in it would be scaled down quite a bit. The relative unpopularity of the HE60 somewhat attests to that. 
 
It's produced to be a halo one off engineering and design spectacle. Hear it if you have a chance, Sennheiser will be parading it around everywhere, but don't assume just because of it's eye popping price tag that it is some otherworldly contraption that would necessarily replace your favorite headphones at home. I don't think the original Orpheus would qualify for that role either.

 

[analogsurviver]

  I'm not sure how many people here heard the original Orpheus, while it is a good nice sound, it was more produced to be something legitimately different. It is in no way shape or form the best headphone ever made for every single ear. I dare say even if it was priced at 1/10 what it is currently priced at the interest in it would be scaled down quite a bit. The relative unpopularity of the HE60 somewhat attests to that. 
 
It's produced to be a halo one off engineering and design spectacle. Hear it if you have a chance, Sennheiser will be parading it around everywhere, but don't assume just because of it's eye popping price tag that it is some otherworldly contraption that would necessarily replace your favorite headphones at home. I don't think the original Orpheus would qualify for that role either.

The problem with Orpheus, like any really good piece of equipment, is the fact you have to spend some time with it. 
 
OK, I did get to hear it finally this year in Munich High End 2015 - but in a super noisy environment ( shame on Sennheiser, they did have kind of closed space, demoing the new CLOSED headphones there, with Orpheus being left out in the general din ...( in the same hall, King's Audio built their own "hall within a hall", with a superbly done demo of their King III electrostatic speakers ...)). But even if and when silent booth was available, those 5-10 minutes max one can hope to get for demo from the manufacturer's soft/hardware is not enough for anything approaching buying decision - at any price, let alone at what Orpheuses of this world command.
 
The number of people who have had at least an afternoon or evening with the original Orpheus must be therefore relatively small. There were 300 sets sold, I doubt this averages to more than 10 people per set for an "afternoon/evening" long session.

 

[Sal1950]

I need to find dealer that offers 30 day home trial.

 

[lyin116]

Interesting all the comments about the pricing.  
 
From marketing perspective, Sennheiser doesn't seem to make full advantage of this model.  It's like sponsoring a racing team for brand promotion, but not selling a mass market version.  Even with all expensive headphones (Stax, Abyss, Hifiman etc flagships at $3K+), Sennheiser as a company is unquestionably with more resource and knowledge in the audiophile sector (not in competition with Beats).  So this set effectively shuts everyone up, with both price and technology anchored at $50K, Sennheiser effectively leaves everyone behind.
 
It is a shame that all that technology does not transfer to other Senn headphones.  No mass market version?  Oppo did a good job anchoring PM-1 at $1200, which I have a suspicion has been planned all along to promote sales for PM-3 at $399.
 
At end of the day, it's always a diminishing return.  Having heard so many headphone and home audio systems ($50K is cheap for a speaker system set up), I found most of the money spent on audio equipment are wasteful, as the increased money spent does not bring you that much closer to music.  After all, we have to admit that we are limited by so many other factors, such as recording quality, ambiance noise, etc.  For a choice to be made, it's better to spend money on actual performances.  I would prefer a live jazz session in a local bar over Miles Davis recording played through a $50K headphone system.
 
But that's beyond the point.  Since this hobby is for the sake of finding and discussing best headphones, headphones are an end, as opposed to a mean to an end.  

 

[Ali-Pacha]

 
And it is here that Sennheiser could improve upon the original Orpheus - in the DRIVE. Good enough and safe enough. Compared to this, everything else from ceramic stators etc, etc,etc is - bling. Not saying it does not contribute to excellence, but it most definitely is not the decisive factor.

Even with only 40% of the capacitance to drive (50 pf vs. 120 pf), I don't see any real substitute to current in true class A. Then heat, let's say around 40-50% of a Stax SRM-T2, certainly the highest you may reach considering general safety regulations (and China's ones are strongest than EU ones, for example...mark Stax's word in 2012's factory tour).
 
I think this decided-by-the-design-section-marble-bling enclosure did give a lot of pain to Sennheiser's engineers. That said, there's something about a CPU-controlled way of driving (some hints in a recent article on an aborted listening session) that might be very interesting...but not very reassuring on the other hand, if your major concern is safety.
 
Driver materials, diaphragm tensioning, stator/diaphragm gaps and tension (bias + Vpp stator) should have also a lot to say considering heat limits of amplification a priori. I suspect lower bias / gaps / Vpp, and very high tensioning of the diaphragm to avoid arcing.
 
Ali

 

[analogsurviver]

  Even with only 40% of the capacitance to drive (50 pf vs. 120 pf), I don't see any real substitute to current in true class A. Then heat, let's say around 40-50% of a Stax SRM-T2, certainly the highest you may reach considering general safety regulations (and China's ones are strongest than EU ones, for example...mark Stax's word in 2012's factory tour).
 
I think this decided-by-the-design-section-marble-bling enclosure did give a lot of pain to Sennheiser's engineers. That said, there's something about a CPU-controlled way of driving (some hints in a recent article on an aborted listening section) that might be very interesting...but not very reassuring on the other hand, if your major concern is safety.
 
Driver materials, diaphragm tensioning, stator/diaphragm gaps and tension (bias + Vpp stator) should have also a lot to say considering heat limits of amplification a priori. I suspect lower bias / gaps / Vpp, and very high tensioning of the diaphragm to avoid arcing.
 
Ali

Trouble is that lower gaps mean higher capacitance (linear relationship), lower bass SPL capability, high tension means higher resonant frequency ( leading towards midbass hump ) , etc. That is why Lambda got modified into Lambda Pro - by increasing the gap. Decreasing basically means reducing the performance on all counts except ultimate HF extension of the DRIVER itself - the mass of the driver is any air trapped in gaps AND "holes" in the stator, as the mass of the diaphragm itself is VERY tiny compared to the air trapped.
I seriously doubt that now well into the digital age, where bass down to DC can be reliably put onto the recording, Senn would risk coming on the market with the bass limited headphone which is otherwise predestined to be the best.
 
Stats will NEVER be able to compete with dynamic drivers in the bass ( just try some Audeze in a really hot bass recording of a live concert - and then try to replicate that wit electrostatics... - no go ). Inherent limitation(s) - I am glad they are as good as they are, which is acceptable for most, but not all music.
 
Driver materials have nothing to do with electrical drive per se, they govern the mechanical resonance behaviour of the ES driver. To the amp, it is the very same same - unless it is the "upside down" design like Beveridge, which works trough feedback off EACH INDIVIDUAL molecule off diaphragm, yielding even lower distortion than the usual conventional ES driver like Orpheus 2.
 
Well, my major concern is not safety. Pure performance. But that does not mean I am crazy enough to further pursue deadly audio, no matter how great it sounds; even if of my own design.
 
Come to think of it, that marble enclosure may not be just bling. It is an INSULATOR - and yes, ESL amps tend to like and sing best without any metallic case at all.  
It could have been some moulded plastic, but that we will hopefully see in Baby =rpheus 2 some day.