The Sennheiser Orpheus 2? A First Look At The Sennheiser HE-1 (The New Orpheus)

[up late]

  Well, it's the only variable I can see, as I did not listen to audiophile recordings by any stretch. But obviously suit yourself 

 
how about differences in hearing perception? that's another variable you could factor into the subjective listening impressions. there are a number of possible variables at play, but to attribute the cause to one that you haven't encountered is flawed reasoning. had you heard the dac for yourself and come to the same conclusion, then you'd at least have your own subjective experience to base it on.

 

[raypin]

Mm..having heard the HE 1, as-is, I am curious if the extraordinary sound quality can be further improved upon with an external DAC like the DAVE or similar.

 

[Dobrescu George]

Mm..having heard the HE 1, as-is, I am curious if the extraordinary sound quality can be further improved upon with an external DAC like the DAVE or similar.

 
I would imagine them incorporating something really special at 50.000 prie point of HE1 

 

[astrostar59]

Mm..having heard the HE 1, as-is, I am curious if the extraordinary sound quality can be further improved upon with an external DAC like the DAVE or similar.

I am curious, they must have used the Sabre DAC for a reason. Maybe they system tuned the sound a bit in the DAC itself, that would make sense as they have total control over all 3 elements to work together. Possibly running an external DAC would change the sound signature quite a bit, and possibly in a bad way? I would prefer my own DAC, but not having heard the HE-1 yet have no way of knowing an external DAC would (in this case) be a move in the right direction.

 

[VandyMan]

I hold my tongue on this usually, but this backseat discussion from all the "experts" (this chip sounds bad, come on) is getting silly. DACs make a minor contribution to the overall sound. That is my opinion. Almost no one can tell good DACs apart in blind testing. That is a fact. Perhaps the brilliant engineers who created the pinnacle of headphone technology know what they are doing with the electronics? I heard the HE-1 with my own music choices and I agree with the majority who have posted here, the hype is more than justified. I think that the price is ridiculous, but that is a different topic.
 
If I were dropping 50K on this, my concern would not be the DAC. It would be the reliability of the mechanical parts and motors, which can't really be known until the HE-1 has been in the wild for awhile.

 

[up late]

i'm glad that you allowed your tongue to wag on this occasion

 

[astrostar59]

  I hold my tongue on this usually, but this backseat discussion from all the "experts" (this chip sounds bad, come on) is getting silly. DACs make a minor contribution to the overall sound. That is my opinion. Almost no one can tell good DACs apart in blind testing. That is a fact. 

Really? This is not what a major part of the audio community say, at least the ones actively looking and trying various DACs.
 
I have owned around 20 DACs since the start of Redbook, and demo'd more than that. I have buddies who have the same, and the consensus is not with your narrow view, sorry. Lets take it back to real basics and ask this.
 
1. Do Pre-amplifiers sound different? Of course they do. Lets face it, a DAC is 70% a Pre-amplifier, 30% Digital conversion in effect.
2. Does the output from an iPhone's DAC sound the same as an MSB DAC?
3. Do DS DACs sound different to R-2R DACs?
4. Would a Lampizator Golden Gate sound the same as a Chord Mojo?
 
There are many guys on this forum with high end headphones that search for the best DAC for their particular setup. If they all, sound the same, why would they even bother..... I have found they don't all sound the same, far from it.

 

[up late]

i know of folks who can't hear differences between dacs or amps but they're not audiophiles and don't expect to. let's not rehash this tiresome contest of beliefs here that no one can win.

 

[Dobrescu George]

  i know of folks who can't hear differences between dacs or amps but they're not audiophiles and don't expect to. let's not rehash this tiresome contest of beliefs here that no one can win.

 

  Really? This is not what a major part of the audio community say, at least the ones actively looking and trying various DACs.
 
I have owned around 20 DACs since the start of Redbook, and demo'd more than that. I have buddies who have the same, and the consensus is not with your narrow view, sorry. Lets take it back to real basics and ask this.
 
1. Do Pre-amplifiers sound different? Of course they do. Lets face it, a DAC is 70% a Pre-amplifier, 30% Digital conversion in effect.
2. Does the output from an iPhone's DAC sound the same as an MSB DAC?
3. Do DS DACs sound different to R-2R DACs?
4. Would a Lampizator Golden Gate sound the same as a Chord Mojo?
 
There are many guys on this forum with high end headphones that search for the best DAC for their particular setup. If they all, sound the same, why would they even bother..... I have found they don't all sound the same, far from it.

 
I agree with you, DACs do make a difference. It takes me 5 seconds to tell AKM apart from ESS. 
 
Almost impossible to tell TI from ESS tho. 

 
I am curious, they must have used the Sabre DAC for a reason. Maybe they system tuned the sound a bit in the DAC itself, that would make sense as they have total control over all 3 elements to work together. Possibly running an external DAC would change the sound signature quite a bit, and possibly in a bad way? I would prefer my own DAC, but not having heard the HE-1 yet have no way of knowing an external DAC would (in this case) be a move in the right direction.
 

  I hold my tongue on this usually, but this backseat discussion from all the "experts" (this chip sounds bad, come on) is getting silly. DACs make a minor contribution to the overall sound. That is my opinion. Almost no one can tell good DACs apart in blind testing. That is a fact. Perhaps the brilliant engineers who created the pinnacle of headphone technology know what they are doing with the electronics? I heard the HE-1 with my own music choices and I agree with the majority who have posted here, the hype is more than justified. I think that the price is ridiculous, but that is a different topic.
 
If I were dropping 50K on this, my concern would not be the DAC. It would be the reliability of the mechanical parts and motors, which can't really be known until the HE-1 has been in the wild for awhile.

 
I also agree with you! 
 
There's much more concern about the whole system reliability rather than the DAC used. 

I am preeeeeeetty sure they used the best fitting DAC for the whole system. 
 
And yes, between most good DACs, it is impossible to tell them apart. 
 
AKM vs TI / ESS is easy to tell tho - AKM has rolled off / smoothed out treble and this is really easy to spot. 
 
At any rate, the engineers from Senn surely know very well their job and since they went on and built Orpheus 2, I do believe that they did it with the best sound possible in mind and not for anything else. 

 

[astrostar59]

Agree all good / high end DACs attain a level of performance, or nobody would buy them. BUT they do sound different. 
 
The Chord DAVE is super wide, transparent, but sounds different to the C1 CH Precision, which sounds very different to my AMR DAC, which sounds different to my Audio Note DAC, and these all sound different to the Naim 555 DAC. I could go on. The world of digital is a bit of a nightmare IMO as there are 20K DACs that to me, sound no better than ones at half the price. and others using tubes and R-2R that sound more aligned to my tastes, others that sound very 'hifi'. I won't say best, as this is all subjective and a personal journey.
 
But going back to the HE-1 I would bet you 100K that it WILL sound different hooked up the a Yggy, DAVE or Lampizator for sure, and maybe that slant would suit that persons tastes?
 
This is the paradox, do you spend 50K on a closed system, trust the makers it is the absolute best it can be, and will align with your own sonic preferences, i.e. job done, like it our sell it.
Or do we have the ability to tweak it a bit with different DACs. I would be happier if I had bought the HE-1 to know I could do that, even having to ignore the inbuilt DACs cost.
 
As I said before, my absolute ideal would be (if I had the cash) buy the HE-1 minus the DAC. Sorry to go against some folk in this, but it is what is ingrained in my head, from what I have heard in the past with various DACs.
 
I am still looking forward to hearing it though.... and it might just be the absolute best in all 3 areas inc the DAC, who knows? 

 

[raypin]

Mm..the HE 1, to my knowledge, is not entirely a closed system. You can pair it an external DAC. Once you own an HE 1, you can mix and match it with different DACs to your heart's content. Who cares what others think? As it is, the 8 DACs that Sennheiser built into the system are superb (imo) but that should not prevent you from experimenting a bit. If a different DAC alters the sound, so what? No harm done. Investing 50,000 Euros comes with the privelege of tinkering with the HE 1.

 

[up late]

yes, it's all about acquiring "the absolute best" @astrostar59, which is open to interpretation

 

[VandyMan]

Several thoughtful responses. I agree that we should not debate DACs here; I just wanted to offer a different point of view that was not represented in the conversation.

Tyll wrote about this in his Big Sound 2015 showdown. I don't always agree with his opinion, but in this case I wholeheartedly do, so I will quote him:
 
The transducers themselves are, by far, the biggest variable, and the fact that they were driven by different DACs and amps would not substantially alter the inherent character of the headphones. The other reason was to disabuse folks of the idea that amps and DACS made a huge difference in sound quality—and much more so, the differences due to cable and power conditioning/regeneration. (After participating in the initial blind test I would often offer folks the opportunity to blind test the differences between cables. They would often laugh and say, "No way! If I can't tell the differences in amps with the HE-1000, I'm certainly not going to be able to test the differences between cables.") It is very important for entusiasts not to over-enthusiastically claim huge differences in these areas—it makes objectivists crazy...and rightly so.
...
I remain convinced that the differences between amps, and more-so DACs, is objectively small. 
...
Please be careful about exaggerating your experience in listening comparisons; they're usually not that big; they'll often be specific to your tastes and sensibilities; and they may skew the experience of others and lead them astray.

Source:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-wrap-what-i-learned

 

[astrostar59]

yes, it's all about acquiring "the absolute best" @astrostar59, which is open to interpretation

Fair enough. And the absolute best IMO would probably mean an external DAC, round and round we go..... 

 

[Articnoise]

The DAC, the source, the amp the tubes are all important for the final sound. The more revealing the headphone the more important they are. Many times the difference between SOTA DACs is more about difference in presentation and tonally, than technically better - but those thing are important too, especially in the long run. For short blind tests not so much.

 

Jude used a Chord TT instead of the inbuilt DAC in his review. I wonder why