[bigshot]

Imaging is related to a balanced frequency response. No masking, revealing accurate timbres and separation between instruments. Soundstage is related to channel separation and is created in the mix. Now that you know, you can use the terms correctly.

 

[ADUHF]

I agree that FR is important to stereo imaging (in my understanding of the term), because you cannot present an accurate stereo image without all of the correct timbral info.

Imo though, you cannot present a clear and accurate stereo image without good driver symmetry, and good clarity (ie low distortion) as well. So I see all of the above as being central components to good stereo imaging.

I'm less certain how to define soundstage. But for most headphone users, it seems to be more about the dimensions of the space that the stereo image resides in, and its perceived width, depth and maybe also its height.

It is possible that I am oversimplying both concepts though. And the two are more closely intertwined than this.

 

[bigshot]

They are two separate things. If I didn't explain it clearly enough, I'll try to make it clearer.

 

[ADUHF]

They are two separate things. If I didn't explain it clearly enough, I'll try to make it clearer.

If you want to expand a bit further, then you could try to explain how channel separation would apply in headphones.

Since we're dealing with two different types of transducers and listening spaces though, I'm not sure we can use precisely the same definitions for both.

 

[ADUHF]

A couple more videos from some guy named Josh...

 

[ADUHF]

Some impressions on soundstage (and a little on imaging?) from a headphone manufacturer. This is pretty subjective.





In the 2nd video, the guys seem to be using "3D imaging" and "soundstage" more or less interchangeably.

 

[ADUHF]

I think I'm on fairly safe ground when I say that different sized rooms will have a somewhat different type of rise in the lower frequencies. So there may also be some ways of influencing the impressions of this on a pair of headphones by adjusting the rate and amount of rise from the midrange into the bass/sub-bass.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Imaging can affect the perceived soundstage. That’s the riddle, the fact that a correct imaging will take instruments and vocals and project them into the soundstage to somehow make the soundstage seem bigger than it is. IMO

 

[ADUHF]

Well, it's an interesting topic. So I'm sort of glad someone brought it up.

 

[bigshot]

If you want to expand a bit further, then you could try to explain how channel separation would apply in headphones.

Sure. Headphones have completely discrete channel separation. The sound is shot into your ears directly, creating a straight line of sound from left to right through the middle of your head. If a sound source pots from one channel to the other, it sounds like it is traveling from one side of your head, through the middle of your skull to the other. So when an orchestra is laid out in a stereo spread, the violins are in your left ear, the woodwinds are in the middle of your skull, and the cellos are in your right ear. This is nothing like the way that an orchestra sounds like when it is on a stage and you are listening in the audience.

With speakers, it is different. You have a equilateral triangle arrangement with the speakers a distance in front of the listener spread out to the left and right. The engineers who mix music monitor it on exactly the same setup of speakers and listening position, so you are hearing it exactly as they did. Now the orchestra isn't a line through your head, it is a plane of sound in front of you at a distance. The sound of the two channels blends as the dispersion of the speakers overlap, creating a coherent layout of instruments. The sound reflects off the walls and ceiling of your living room, just as they would in a concert hall, creating a "bloom" around the sound that gives it space and presence. Skilled engineers assume that there's going to be a blending of channels and room reflections, so they use that to create a realistic "sound stage" and place sound objects within that field in a way that creates the illusion that you are in the audience of a concert hall, hearing an orchestra perform in front of you. You can design your listening space to mimic the scale of a real auditorium, and you can use rear channel speakers to create delays that make a living room sound very much like Carnegie Hall.

Not all recordings employ soundstage. Soundstage assumes a fixed arrangement of sound throughout the entire recording. But with the introduction of multichannel recording, and albums like Sgt Pepper and Dark Side of the Moon, a different way of mixing sound was developed where there wasn't one soundstage, but a kaleidoscope of different sound fields shifting and morphing throughout the entire recording. This is generally referred to as multitrack mixing. The idea isn't to create a specific soundstage, but rather to create an entirely new sonic environment for the music to inhabit. Headphones can do a better job of reproducing this kind of mix than it can soundstage.

Now I understand your confusion about channel separation... Many headphone audiophiles have the same misconceptions. You are assuming that channel separation is a good thing, and it certainly is when it comes to amps and players. You want to keep the two channels completely discrete until they reach the speakers. But with speakers, the sound produced by the transducers is just half the sound. The physical dimensions of the room can blend the channels in a natural sounding way and that is just as important as the sound coming out of the speakers. In fact, with many speaker installations in people's homes, the room is more of a limiting factor than the equipment.

If you'd like terminology for all this that is more precise:

Soundstage: The illusion of performers on a stage in front of the listener created by the interaction of speakers in a room modifying the sound of a stereo mix.

Headstage: The sound of headphones with completely discrete left and right channels which create a straight line of sound through the middle of the head.

A couple of links about the early history of soundstage...

John Culshaw: A Decca classical music recording supervisor who pioneered what he called Sonic Stage. Decca trademarked that name, so other companies who used the same technique referred to it as Sound Stage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Culshaw

A research paper on Culshaw's technique which includes a photo of the sonic stage layout of the orchestra and singers for Gotterdammerung, which is one of the most vivid examples of soundstage ever made.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.960.9827&rep=rep1&type=pdf

 

[bigshot]

Imaging is something completely different. If you have frequency response imbalances, you can end up with auditory masking, which blocks certain bands of frequencies from being heard. This can affect the way a musical instrument sounds. An extreme example is how pianos sounded in early acoustic recordings. The response of early phonographs was both band limited and wildly uneven, with huge spikes in certain bands and deep valleys in others. This peculiar response suited the human voice, which occupies a narrow range of frequencies. But with pianos, it wreaked havoc with the sound cancelling out chunks of the keyboard and affecting the timbre of others. Without harmonics, a piano sounds like a xylophone or like clattering china.

Auditory Masking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_masking

This can happen to a lesser extent with headphones that are goosed in certain areas. The reason a set of cans with a response for "rock" (I hate that kind of designation, but I'll use it because it explains this concept) doesn't sound good playing classical music is because rock music favors the mids- that loud "in your face" sound. Classical music has a much broader and subtler range of frequencies, and pushing the mids like that can alter the harmonics so much that strings sound like synthesizers and oboes sound like someone farting.

So imaging is the precise balance of fundamental frequencies and upper harmonics that defines the natural sound of an instrument.

Hope this helps!

 

[Paul Mohr]

The simple way I always looked at it was this. With headphones sound stage is imaginary bubble around your head. Imaging is the placement of those sounds inside that bubble. How large that bubble is and how accurately the sounds get placed in it depend on the headphones and how the recording was engineered. Some headphones have a very wide sound stage (for headphones anyway) but might not image as well. And instead of being a bubble its more like a rectangle. Its just wide but very in your face or going directly through your head from one side to the other. Others have a more narrow stage but it can be more 3d like and it can image things slightly in front of you and up and down. More like an actual bubble. And other headphones are just all in your face or your head but tend to have very accurate imaging from left to right. And some headphones just suck lol. You either hear the sound from the left, the center or the right. For me I have noticed some amps can improve the sound stage and imaging a little bit. However that could be in my head. I would love to test it to actually see though.

Sound stage on speakers is basically the room you are in. And in a well treated room and with proper speaker placement it can extend beyond the room. With a very good speaker set up the room and speakers should disappear. And again imaging is where these sounds are going to be. They can be out in front of you, to the sides, behind you and everywhere in between. Speakers are way more complicated though. There are so many things that can effect and change it. The room itself, the placement of the speakers in the room, the toe in of the speakers and even the design of the speakers and crossovers.

And just like headphones, and even more so to a point your mind can effect it as well. Especially with visual ques. The brain is a tricky mofo. One thing I have noticed with speakers that headphones won't do is vocal positioning based on what you see. With speakers if you are watching an image on a screen your mind will put the dialog on the screen. If the screen is 8 feet away that is where you will hear it come from. Move that screen up to 3 feet and guess what, now the voice comes from 3 feet away, not behind the screen where it was before. Your mind tricks you into perceiving that sound coming from where you think it should. With headphones this doesn't happen, at least not for me. Regardless of what I am looking at the sound is always just right there in your face or in your head.

 

[bigshot]

Yep. Headstage=Headphones / Soundstage=Speakers.

There is a progression of sophistication of sound... mono - stereo - multichannel, which create a sound source (mono) - headstage (stereo headphones) - soundstage (stereo speakers) - sound field (multichannel speakers)

The only aspect aside from physical ones that can affect soundstage is channel separation. If you're hearing differences between headstage or soundstage with different amps or DACs, it is almost certainly placebo effect, because channel separation is not an issue with home audio electronic components. What is generally inaccurately described as "soundstage"in headphones is whether headphones are open or closed... that is just the degree that the sound bleeds a little bit further than the circumference of the head. It isn't real depth, it's just the difference between having a cup over your ear or not.

 

[Paul Mohr]

Ya I should quit using the term sound stage when talking about headphones. Too used to speakers I guess. I'm kind of new to the headphone thing. Headphones were always something I used because I had to, not because I wanted to. I am starting to get the appeal of them though. Like I have mentioned before good headphones can do things average speakers can't. To get the level of performance in certain areas you would have to spend a ton on good speakers and amps. Everything is a trade off though. Another thing I have noticed is headphone are more relaxing to me. I suffer from some pretty serious anxiety issues. I am disabled because of it. I have noticed that with speakers music doesn't relax me as much. I think maybe something to do with the physical impact and size of the sound field. Maybe it overwhelms me to a certain degree and is too engaging. Headphones are much more personal and close and tend to leave me more calm.

I figured as much with the amps. I have never seen it make a difference with speakers. It was always about the design of the speaker, the room and placement. No cable or amp ever changed how they imaged. Change the toe in by 5 or 10 degrees though and it changes the sound. I would still love to do a test just for my own curiosity though. I think it would be fun to try. I like testing psychological phenomenons like visual and audio tricks the mind plays on you. I find it fascinating.

Oh by the way, I hooked up a bass transducer to my headphone rig today. Its pretty crazy lol. The amp I used is a bit too powerful though. I figured one transducer would be plenty but I might have to add the other just so I can half my amp power to get more control out of it. 70 watts into 4 ohms is a bit too much to match headphones I guess lol. It will shake the crap out of my chair if I turn it up though. Not very realistic but it makes a nice back massager. I bet a subwoofer coupled with open back headphones would sound amazing.

 

[bigshot]

I like headphones mostly for convenience. They are portable, and they don't disturb others. They are inexpensive and there are lots to choose from. You can use them in your house or at work or on the go. The best headphones for me are the ones that are comfortable and balanced sounding so I can wear them for an hour or two without getting itchy or irritated by response deviation. My AirPods are even better because with them, I can have music anywhere.

But when I really want to immerse myself in music and tune everything else out, speakers are the best. I love it when music overwhelms me! Like you say, the room is important and the arrangement of the speakers in the room can make a big difference, but when I bought a house, my top priority was that it had to have a good space for a dedicated theater/listening room. Now I've got the best of all worlds, a great speaker system and a great portable system and great full size headphones.