The science of science.
Nov 14, 2008 at 4:19 AM Post #16 of 33
Here's something I'm working on on the D v. ID issue. It's illustrative of my views on defining science. I don't know if you can be bothered, but I'd like some constructive criticism on where I'm going wrong:

What are the aims of science? This answer to this question depends, of course, on whether one is a scientific realist or a scientific anti-realist (or instrumentalist, etc.). I’m a scientific realist, and so are most scientists. I submit that scientific realists believe the aim of science to be the discovery and explanation of facts about the world. We observe facts, collect phenomena, and propose explanations (or theories) that (if they are good theories) both explain previous known facts and generate true novel predictions. If we are also methodological naturalists, then we assume that all scientific explanations must be naturalistic explanations. So, what should the scientist do when no naturalistic explanation is available for a given phenomenon? When asked, “What explains X (where X is a phenomenon for which there is no good naturalistic explanation)?”, she should reply, “We don’t know…yet.” But what if someone proposes an explanation (or theory), which explains X, but which involves supernatural events and entities? Then, the methodological naturalist should say, “That theory is nice, but I reject it on methodological grounds, and would rather wait for a purely naturalistic explanation.” But this is dogmatic.

Perhaps qua scientist, the methodological scientist might say, “No thanks, I’ll wait for a naturalistic explanation”, but once she steps out of the lab, she whispers, “Actually, strictly off the scientific record, I do think that’s a reasonable explanation.” This allows her to keep her methodological naturalism as a scientist, without being dogmatic. But this is odd and schizophrenic. It’s requires the scientist to compartmentalize her life, so that what is reasonable to believe as a person (in general) is not reasonable to believe as a scientist.

So, I submit that science should be in the business of discovering and explaining facts (and phenomena), without being committed to only naturalistic explanations. Scientists should look for the best explanations, whether or not they involve gods, goblins, and gnomes. But then, do we still have a principle of demarcation between science and non-science? I’m not sure we do, actually. And this is troubling, but I think it’s acceptable. But hold on, what about Popper’s widely accepted principle of demarcation: falsifiability?

To see if falsifiability does the trick, let’s take a test case: The neo-Darwinian theory of evolution by natural selection (NS) v. Intelligent Design (ID). In the U.S., many recently sought a principle of demarcation between “scientific” and “non-scientific” theories to adjudicate on the issue of whether ID should be taught alongside NS in schools. For the most part, falsification was thought to fit the bill. The claim is that NS is falsifiable and therefore scientific and therefore appropriate to be taught in high school science classes, and that ID is unfalsifiable and therefore unscientific and therefore inappropriate to be taught in high school classes. I think this is false. NS is no more falsifiable than ID is. Why not?

This is a difficult question. Both Kuhn and Lakatos have pointed out that most scientific theories are made up of a “hard core” (Lakatos’s term), as well as a “protective belt” (Lakatos again), such that the “protective belt” is always blamed from successful falsifications of hypotheses generated by the theory (so that the “hard core” survives unscathed). This seems to be true. Newtonian physics was not abandoned when it was found that Mercury’s behaviour did not conform to it. Instead, astronomers assumed that there was an unseen planet or asteroid belt, etc. Neither was NS abandoned in light of eusocial insects with sterile castes (which seemed to contradict NS). Instead, Darwin proposed group selection. Indeed, it is difficult to see what would constitute a successful falsifier of NS. I doubt Dawkins would give NS up even if a mammalian skull was found in a stratum of rock that dates 200 million years back. He might claim it’s a fake, or something. Indeed, even if potential reproductive success was a poor predictor of actual reproductive success (remember: this was the solution against the charge that NS was tautological), NS would not be falsified. Or so I claim. On the flip side, there are falsifiable versions of Intelligent Design. Or at least versions of ID that are as falsifiable as NS. A corollary of ID is that there is “specific complexity” in organisms. That is, there are some features of some biota that are “irreducibly complex”, defined in some mathematical terms I don’t pretend to understand. Now, this is an empirical claim that is either true or false, and we can check whether it is true or false. That is, we can falsify it. So, ID generates falsifiable hypotheses. Whence the difference? Not in falsifiability.

Now, the U.S. got rid of Creation Science on religious grounds. It’s unconstitutional because it favours a particular religion. ID is much more slippery in this regard. ID need not be committed to any religious doctrine. It only states that there are phenomena (i.e., specific complexity) that are inexplicable in NS terms, and that an intelligent designer (whatever that might be) is necessary (or the best explanation) for such phenomena. Methodological naturalism notwithstanding, this is a fair enough theory.

So, should we teach ID in high school science classes? Well, it depends. It depends, not whether ID is science or not (as I don’t think we have good principles of demarcation for doing so), but whether or not it’s good science. Is “specified complexity” is sound concept? Are there “irreducibly complex” features of biota inexplicable in NS terms? If not, then it shouldn’t be taught because it’s bad science. We no longer teach Ptolemaic astronomy and Phlogiston theory, because we currently have better physical and chemical theories than these. If NS is (currently) a better theory than ID, then why take up time to teach ID? Sure, ID might be true (and NS might be false), but at the moment it doesn’t seem like we have good reasons for believing so. We can’t teach everything, and NS is difficult enough to teach as it is. So, no ID. Not even my rejection of methodological naturalism and falsification as principles of demarcation can save ID.
 
Nov 14, 2008 at 3:24 PM Post #17 of 33
Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So, I submit that science should be in the business of discovering and explaining facts (and phenomena), without being committed to only naturalistic explanations. Scientists should look for the best explanations, whether or not they involve gods, goblins, and gnomes.


Supernatural explanations then? I do not think that scientists agree with this.

As for "Intelligent Design", it has no predictive value. It just states that God (later changed to the Intelligent Designer because of legal pressure) created stuff the way it is today and (unsuccessfully) tries to discredit biology.

You could make up the same useless crap about gravity. Let's call it Intelligent Gravity. Of course, on Earth, gravity is hard to deny, so let's just call that 'micro gravity', which has been observed. However, that's totally different from the Einsteinean/Newtonean theory of macro-gravity that extends throughout the universe. No amount of micro gravity can lead to macro gravity. (Because I says so.) Since no one has been any further than the moon (and if you're a little nutty, you probably reject that too) there is no real evidence of the existance of gravity. Let me explain by a dialogue:

Me: If you see a ball coming towards you, what do you think?
Innocent child: Who threw it at me?
Me: Ah, correct. So, if you know that the Earth is rotating around the sun at about 30 km/s, what do you think?
Innocent child: ...!!!!!

Hence, I propose a supernatural explanation for gravity. An Intelligent Being who directs the planets in their orbits etc. Furthermore, the Einsteinean theory of gravity is bad, because it is nonrenormalizable (it gets out of control when you try to quantize it) so that's proof it can't be true.

At least it should be taught in schools, alongside with ordinary theories of gravity.
 
Nov 14, 2008 at 6:47 PM Post #18 of 33
Ok, I have real work to do here. The last article from Mr. Jong up there (Not "Jung"?
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) changes the subject, and avoids the issues previously raised.

And it's all about "teaching the controversy" in my opinion. I don't have time for that, or for an argument that ignores that we have learned something about the SCIENCE since the original philosphers talked about it, and that THAT knowlege just yanks the entire footing out from under the false dichotomy.

Observability is the key. I'll let somebody else develop it, perhaps.
 
Nov 14, 2008 at 7:45 PM Post #19 of 33
Oh well, I thought it might be too much to ask. Three things to be said though:

1. I'm not avoid the original questions. My lengthy post was about principles of demarcation between "science" and "non-science", and that's what we were discussing earlier.
2. I'm not wanting to teach the controversy, if you're talking about the D v. ID controversy. I state so explicitly.
3. I agree that supernaturalistic explanations are dodgy and unhelpful. But I fail to see why science should exclude them as a matter of principle. Besides, defining "natural" and "supernatural" turns out to be a terribly daunting task, which ends up in a circle. I think Paul Draper has a recent paper on this.

In the end, I'm trying to argue that trying to pin down what "science" is is futile beyond a minimalistic "empirical investigation of the world." The methods are various, e.g., observational, experimental. The argumentative strategies are various, e.g., induction, inference to the best explanation. I don't think we can demarcate epistemic endeavours or theories in "science" and "non-science" as long as such endeavours/theories are broadly empirical. I've tried to show that even ID produces testable hypotheses. Alternative medicine does too. So does religious belief. Problem is, for some of these "research programmes", the hypotheses have been falsified. Consequently, the theorists have made ad hoc changes to the predictions. It's bad science. Better yet, since I think the science-nonscience distinction is impossible to draw: It's bad reasoning.
 
Nov 22, 2008 at 12:20 AM Post #20 of 33
science to me means: experimentally deduced results, reliably reproducible by independant analysis thus capable of corroboration and therefor a high level of proof.
Scientific theories are what tends to fit between the gaps in knowledge and from whence further areas of scientific research spawn.

p.s. I'm a trained chemist
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Nov 22, 2008 at 12:58 AM Post #21 of 33
[DUCKS IN] I'm so happy we have this forum now. [/DUCKS OUT]
 
Nov 22, 2008 at 5:08 AM Post #22 of 33
Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Oh well, I thought it might be too much to ask. Three things to be said though:

1. I'm not avoid the original questions. My lengthy post was about principles of demarcation between "science" and "non-science", and that's what we were discussing earlier.
2. I'm not wanting to teach the controversy, if you're talking about the D v. ID controversy. I state so explicitly.
3. I agree that supernaturalistic explanations are dodgy and unhelpful. But I fail to see why science should exclude them as a matter of principle. Besides, defining "natural" and "supernatural" turns out to be a terribly daunting task, which ends up in a circle. I think Paul Draper has a recent paper on this.

In the end, I'm trying to argue that trying to pin down what "science" is is futile beyond a minimalistic "empirical investigation of the world." The methods are various, e.g., observational, experimental. The argumentative strategies are various, e.g., induction, inference to the best explanation. I don't think we can demarcate epistemic endeavours or theories in "science" and "non-science" as long as such endeavours/theories are broadly empirical. I've tried to show that even ID produces testable hypotheses. Alternative medicine does too. So does religious belief. Problem is, for some of these "research programmes", the hypotheses have been falsified. Consequently, the theorists have made ad hoc changes to the predictions. It's bad science. Better yet, since I think the science-nonscience distinction is impossible to draw: It's bad reasoning.



Thanks for some very interesting posts. Although I disagree with you on a couple of things, I'm glad to see at least one side actually sharing some reasoning instead of just spurting ever more long-winded ways of saying "gaaahhLL no!".

First let me say that this is not my area of expertise so you'll have to excuse my inexperience. You mentioned irreducible complexity in terms of ID earlier, and how that could be how ID could be falsified. What I'm wondering is how any component of a living organism, assuming that component is irreducibly complex, could be distinguished as being derived from "intelligent design" instead of being an unlikely occurence of chance? I assume that NS must have some method whereby such components can be analysed in terms of how complex it is, the mutation rate, etc, and it could be predicted how much time it would likely take for such a component to arise purely by chance?
 
Nov 24, 2008 at 2:16 AM Post #24 of 33
Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Thanks for some very interesting posts. Although I disagree with you on a couple of things, I'm glad to see at least one side actually sharing some reasoning instead of just spurting ever more long-winded ways of saying "gaaahhLL no!".

First let me say that this is not my area of expertise so you'll have to excuse my inexperience. You mentioned irreducible complexity in terms of ID earlier, and how that could be how ID could be falsified. What I'm wondering is how any component of a living organism, assuming that component is irreducibly complex, could be distinguished as being derived from "intelligent design" instead of being an unlikely occurence of chance? I assume that NS must have some method whereby such components can be analysed in terms of how complex it is, the mutation rate, etc, and it could be predicted how much time it would likely take for such a component to arise purely by chance?



To start off with, neither ID nor NS have any truck with things happening "purely by chance", at least in one construal of the phrase. Richard Dawkins has this nifty "Methinks it's a weasel" programme that illustrates the difference between "pure chance" and "chance + selection." And IDers have no problem with the Darwinian story except that they claim that NS can't explain all biological features. That is, there are some biological features, the evolution by NS of which, is very very improbable. How do they come up with the probabilities? No idea, but they've got mathematicians in the ranks.

And this is where, IMO, the impoverishment of ID is revealed. First, many of the biological features earlier claimed to be too complex for NS to explain have been explained. Second, as a theory, ID is parasitic upon NS. Basically, the main claim, the main hypothesis of ID is that there are biological features which NS cannot explain. If there aren't any such biological features, then ID is falsified. But who is to say that the only alternative to NS is ID? Why should ID win, in the event that NS fails? In response, IDers argue that ID is the "inference to the best explanation", if NS fails. I'll leave the soundness of their argument(s) for you to judge.
 
Nov 24, 2008 at 2:22 AM Post #25 of 33
It's really hard to wrap your mind around "chance" when it is almost always explained in a timeframe of "billions and billions of years".
How can it be proven(maybe observed is a better word)?

Also, aren't there some mathamaticians who have (calculated?) that chance is not possible, mathematically?
I have no names.
EDIT:Nevermind, I think I found it, it deals with specifics, and is not universal.
 
Nov 24, 2008 at 8:31 PM Post #27 of 33
Interesting, if lengthy, video. At least this young man is honest enough to say that he doesn't know what the biological parts he experiments with do, or what thier purposes are for.
He will no doubt go far, as he is very hands on, and actively involved in real world experimentation.
Thanks for the link.
 
Nov 24, 2008 at 11:03 PM Post #28 of 33
Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That is, there are some biological features, the evolution by NS of which, is very very improbable. How do they come up with the probabilities? No idea, but they've got mathematicians in the ranks.


They do it by not understanding, or knowingly ignoring, the difference between chance+natural selection as opposed to just chance. In essence, they multiply big numbers and invert them. (At least, that's all I've seen.)

I know you're not a supporter of Creationism/ID but I still find it kind of disgusting that you take them as seriously as you do just because (1) you don't understand the details and (2) can't draw the line between science and nonscience.

Also, if you think the Creationist movement deserves to be taken seriously because some people who support it have academic degrees and you're not an expert yourself, you should consider other 'controversial' theories where some people (on ideological grounds) try to find evidence to suit their world view.

Would you consider say Holocaust denial (they have some Ph.D.'s on their side, and have strong support in some Arab countries!) or theories that 9/11 was orchestrated by the Government (or even the Jews!). Maybe that should be considered for history class as alternative views? I bet polls would show lots of people actually believe in these theories.
 
Nov 25, 2008 at 12:46 AM Post #29 of 33
Quote:

Originally Posted by mape00 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Would you consider say Holocaust denial (they have some Ph.D.'s on their side, and have strong support in some Arab countries!) or theories that 9/11 was orchestrated by the Government (or even the Jews!). Maybe that should be considered for history class as alternative views? I bet polls would show lots of people actually believe in these theories.


Does anyone else find ironic the assertion that it's unquestionable truth that one government killed millions of people, but unquestionable falsity unworthy of consideration that another government killed thousands? I'm not saying that one or the other is true or false, I just think it's irrational that one person can believe both these things at once. Considering the topic is science, I think we should limit arguments to ones based on logic and reasoning, not emotion.
 
Nov 30, 2008 at 6:18 AM Post #30 of 33
Quote:

Originally Posted by mape00 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
then pretty much any idea should be science to you


Actually, you're not far off. I know, it's crazy. My point is not so much that everything should be science, but that science is not a well-defined category. There's no good principle of demarcation, not so far as I can tell, besides the minimalistic criterion of empirical investigation. I just don't think that dividing up theories into "science" and "non-science" is a useful way to looking at things.
 

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