[Click]

  Are you implying that because it has the same DAC chip that the performance is the same? DAC is digital to analog conversion, it'd be astounding if the circuitry between the DAC chip and the RCA-out (or whatever out) didn't effect the signal in any way and it'd be weird to assume any product utilizes its components to the utmost possible degree. I've owned the E10 and own the Modi currently, it's not a gigantic upgrade but the sound does gain some 'size', slightly clearer, wider, taller, etc and the Modi seems to have a more resolution top-end. It's fairly unlikely you'll find a notably better DAC without spending another 100$. I'm going to buy the Modi 2 Uber because Schiit doesn't seem like a company that would use cheap tricks to get potential customers to buy their stuff, in fact their business model relies on their reputation more so than advertising and marketing stuff, so doing something deceitful like that wouldn't work too well in the long run. Modi is definitely at least a little better than the E10, if that's your primary concern.

Why wouldn't the performance be the same? It uses the same DAC chip and everything else looks to be the same on it except that it now supports 24/192 due to new drivers.
 
I never said anything about Schiit using "cheap tricks to get potential customers to buy their stuff." Nor did I ever insinuate that they're being deceitful. There are obviously a ton of Schiit fanboys in here taking offense to me asking questions. Questions that they haven't officially answered and decided to ignore. Questions that are now answered by fanboys assuming things and coming to Schiit's defense because they seem to think I'm attacking the company... which I'm not.
 
Like I said, I already bought the Vali and it's sitting on my desk right now. I'm not hating on Schiit or the Modi. I simply wanted to know if these are an upgrade to the original model and if they aren't, then why bother naming/making a new model. And FYI, I'm looking at the Dragonfly 1.2 as an alternative quality DAC in this price range. Yes, I realize it's $145, so it's more expensive than the Modi 2 and it doesn't support 24/192, but I've heard far more better reviews on that DAC than the Modi. 

 

[cizx]

Wondered the same thing...

Wyrd improves Gungnir and Bifrost.

 

[xuan87]

  Why wouldn't the performance be the same? It uses the same DAC chip and everything else looks to be the same on it except that it now supports 24/192 due to new drivers.
 
I never said anything about Schiit using "cheap tricks to get potential customers to buy their stuff." Nor did I ever insinuate that they're being deceitful. There are obviously a ton of Schiit fanboys in here taking offense to me asking questions. Questions that they haven't officially answered and decided to ignore. Questions that are now answered by fanboys assuming things and coming to Schiit's defense because they seem to think I'm attacking the company... which I'm not.
 
Like I said, I already bought the Vali and it's sitting on my desk right now. I'm not hating on Schiit or the Modi. I simply wanted to know if these are an upgrade to the original model and if they aren't, then why bother naming/making a new model. And FYI, I'm looking at the Dragonfly 1.2 as an alternative quality DAC in this price range. Yes, I realize it's $145, so it's more expensive than the Modi 2 and it doesn't support 24/192, but I've heard far more better reviews on that DAC than the Modi. 

 
First, I'll like to say I'm not a Schiit fanboy, I do not have any Schiit products so maybe I can provide a more neutral and unbiased perspective.
 
I will say that same DAC chip DOES NOT equal same sound. It all depends on the implementation.
 
And it's the weekend.... give them a break and some time to reply the questions here... 
 
Lastly, you have to remember that the Modi 2 is being sold at the same price as Modi. So ASSUMING that the DAC chip in Modi 2 is implemented in the same way as Modi (same circuit, topology etc), and that it sounds the same, then I will say that it's fair for Schiit to update it to 2 just based on the additional 24/192 support. Afterall, they're not charging you MORE money or launching it as a new product, which I feel will be a better technique to sell more units to existing Modi users.
 
And there is only so much you can learn from reviews. Case in point: For the past two weeks, most reviews I've read let me form the impression that the iBasso DX90 is more neutral than the FiiO X5 and will be more suitable for me since I'm using a JDS C5D now. However, when I got the chance to compare the 2 side by side, it couldn't be further from the truth. The FiiO X5 sounds much closer to the C5D than the DX90.
 
So I never trust reviews too much, at best, they just tell me what I should try out, not what I should buy. You should do the same, if an opportunity arises, to try the two side by side. If not, just go with your gut feeling, which seems to be leaning towards the dragonfly (and there is nothing wrong with that).

 

[GearMe]

Are you implying that because it has the same DAC chip that the performance is the same? DAC is digital to analog conversion, it'd be astounding if the circuitry between the DAC chip and the RCA-out (or whatever out) didn't effect the signal in any way and it'd be weird to assume any product utilizes its components to the utmost possible degree. I've owned the E10 and own the Modi currently, it's not a gigantic upgrade but the sound does gain some 'size', slightly clearer, wider, taller, etc and the Modi seems to have a more resolution top-end. It's fairly unlikely you'll find a notably better DAC without spending another 100$. I'm going to buy the Modi 2 Uber because Schiit doesn't seem like a company that would use cheap tricks to get potential customers to buy their stuff, in fact their business model relies on their reputation more so than advertising and marketing stuff, so doing something deceitful like that wouldn't work too well in the long run. Modi is definitely at least a little better than the E10, if that's your primary concern.

Definitely agree with this...

Used my E10 line out into the Magni until I got my Modi and thought the sound improved when I swapped the Modi in.

One would hope the Modi 2 sounds better than the Modi and is, therefore, better than the E10.

That said, Fiio hasn't been sitting still either. The E10K is supposed to be an improvement over the original E10 (new DAC chip, opamp, buffering, etc.) for $75...wonder how it compares with the Fulla.

 

[LaPierre]

  Why wouldn't the performance be the same? It uses the same DAC chip and everything else looks to be the same on it except that it now supports 24/192 due to new drivers.
 
I never said anything about Schiit using "cheap tricks to get potential customers to buy their stuff." Nor did I ever insinuate that they're being deceitful. There are obviously a ton of Schiit fanboys in here taking offense to me asking questions. Questions that they haven't officially answered and decided to ignore. Questions that are now answered by fanboys assuming things and coming to Schiit's defense because they seem to think I'm attacking the company... which I'm not.
 
Like I said, I already bought the Vali and it's sitting on my desk right now. I'm not hating on Schiit or the Modi. I simply wanted to know if these are an upgrade to the original model and if they aren't, then why bother naming/making a new model. And FYI, I'm looking at the Dragonfly 1.2 as an alternative quality DAC in this price range. Yes, I realize it's $145, so it's more expensive than the Modi 2 and it doesn't support 24/192, but I've heard far more better reviews on that DAC than the Modi. 

We don't know that it uses the same 'everything', there's more to a DAC than just the chip and from the sounds of it they've changed the circuit stuff. I wasn't taking offense to what you said, just trying to explain some things to the best of my limited knowledge so you're not misled, though it'd help if I had a better understanding myself. That being said, I can't tell you if Modi 2 is significantly better or any different sounding than Modi 1, but Modi 2 Uber seems like it'll be a good deal better and its 150$. I'm not sure what importance 24/192 has, that seems like an unnecessarily high resolution format considering what we can perceive. 

 

[tonykaz]

Mr.Click & Mr.LaPierre,
 
You both deserve a round of applause, these are points well taken, some level of clarity will result from all this debate , everyone will benefit from your efforts and hard work on this matter!   
 
Thank you for your contributions,
 
Tony in Michigan 

 

[mkozlows]

  Ohh that's the info I was looking for. It sounds like the Amazon method is better for someone who is on the fence about a product, while ordering direct is the preferred method by Schiit. I'll gladly pay the extra $10 for the chance to return more than once per year

 
The Amazon fulfillment method definitely will let you return stuff more conveniently, and so by the book, you absolutely can do that. But it's pretty clear that Schiit's policies aren't intended for people to showroom things without paying a restocking fee, and doing that repeatedly is kind of a jerk move even if it is legal.
 
(That said, if you do Amazon Prime, it's cheaper to order from Amazon than Schiit at all times, so there's that.)

 

[teofilrocks]

The Amazon fulfillment method definitely will let you return stuff more conveniently, and so by the book, you absolutely can do that. But it's pretty clear that Schiit's policies aren't intended for people to showroom things without paying a restocking fee, and doing that repeatedly is kind of a jerk move even if it is legal.

While it can be abused, this is also part of the cost of doing business. Especially in this kind of business. By abuse, I mean buying a product you never intend on specifically keeping. Maybe that's what you mean when you say "showboating". But otherwise, these are the types of products that cannot be demoed by most people and they need to try them at home with their gear. And if they aren't satisfied, it goes back. I bought a couple different IEMs, knowing that at least one wouldn't make the cut. One I bought through Amazon specifically because it's easier to return, if it comes to that. The other I bought from a reseller that charges a restocking fee. That's ok, I know why they roll that way. I'm willing to loose a little money to have the opportunity to see if they are the ones for me. Just like companies are willing to sell through Amazon for the greater exposure, even if they sometimes take a hit because if returns. It's the cost of doing business. But if I can avoid that fee, I'll do so every time. Why wouldn't I try to save myself some money?

 

[cizx]

   
The Amazon fulfillment method definitely will let you return stuff more conveniently, and so by the book, you absolutely can do that. But it's pretty clear that Schiit's policies aren't intended for people to showroom things without paying a restocking fee, and doing that repeatedly is kind of a jerk move even if it is legal.
 
(That said, if you do Amazon Prime, it's cheaper to order from Amazon than Schiit at all times, so there's that.)

Why is it a "jerk move" if it's legal and playing by Amazon's rules?  If Schiit didn't want to do it, they wouldn't.  Amazon isn't holding them hostage, and you're not doing them a favor by keeping a product you might not want just because they'd feel bad if you returned it.  This is business.  Schiit is absolutely going to look after themselves, and it's your obligation to yourself to do the same.
 
I don't know what era you guys are living in, but the days of trading chickens for audio equipment with your local engineer (who also makes his own PCBs and trades his wife's cookies for DAC chips) never existed.  Trust that if Schiit or their distributor is offering something, that everyone is okay with it from a business perspective.  There is no possibility of bypassing fair play if everyone's following a rule book.
 
Honestly, people, it's almost 2015.  If returning 2 amps in a year is going to break the bank, they have no business in business.
 
That all being said, I bought a Gungnir from Amazon last year and it had a clicking sound in one channel.  I emailed Schiit and they told me to return it to Amazon rather than send it in for repair because it was within Amazon's return window.  The process must be working for them.

 

[mkozlows]

 
Why is it a "jerk move" if it's legal and playing by Amazon's rules? 

 
Look at Schiit's policies on returns when they sell direct and can set the policies that they want: They charge a 5% restocking fee, and even with that, they limit people to doing it once a year. That implies that returns cost them some real money (if the 5% covered it, they wouldn't care how many times a year you returned things).
 
When they sell through Amazon fulfillment, they have no choice but to accept Amazon's policies, which mean unlimited no-fee returns. This is clearly a more consumer-friendly policy (not surprising, because Amazon is crazy consumer-friendly), but it's presumably also a more expensive one for Schiit. Presumably, Schiit monitors the numbers on their Amazon sales, and they continue to come to the conclusion that as things stand, it still makes sense for them to sell through Amazon, even with the greater cost of returns.
 
But: If people start advocating showrooming, saying "hey, you can use Amazon as a way to get around Schiit's return policies -- you can just go ahead and order a Mjolnir, Asgard, and Magni, test them all for 30 days and return the two you don't like for free! Go for it! No reason not to!" and people start listening to that, the calculus might change, and Amazon might start to become too expensive a channel for Schiit to continue to use.
 
And if that were to become true, Schiit would lose access to Amazon customers, Prime subscribers would lose a source of cheaper-sourced Schiit gear, and in general things would be worse.
 
The policies allow it. You can do it. But if a lot of people did it, the world would be worse overall. So it's kind of a jerk move to do it.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

Originally Posted by mkozlows /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
If people start advocating showrooming, saying "hey, you can use Amazon as a way to get around Schiit's return policies -- you can just go ahead and order a Mjolnir, Asgard, and Magni, test them all for 30 days and return the two you don't like for free! Go for it! No reason not to!" and people start listening to that, the calculus might change, and Amazon might start to become too expensive a channel for Schiit to continue to use.
 
The policies allow it. You can do it. But if a lot of people did it, the world would be worse overall. So it's kind of a jerk move to do it.

Yes, we may simply start sharply limiting what is available on Amazon via FBA. We carefully monitor Amazon returns, and have been discussing this for some time due to both abuse, and to Amazon's general incompetence (such as trying to re-ship returns as "new.")
 
To elaborate:
 
1. We began Amazon as an experiment, to see if we could reach more people without affecting direct orders. This appeared to work well, so we expanded the program to FBA (Fulfillment by Amazon.)
 
2. FBA is less than a year old, and I'd still consider it highly experimental. Because of Amazon's looser policies, it invites more abuse. We have had many people go through the whole line, some more than once. Amazon doesn't seem to care, but this is not what the return program was intended to be.
 
3. This is compounded by the fact that Amazon's looser policies result in looser handling of the returns. For direct orders, returns are sold as B-stock. For Amazon, they're gonna repack them and try to reship them to someone who will take them, which has resulted in people getting Asgard 2s thrown in a box with two bubble-bags, no cord, and no manual (sold as new, yes, welcome to FBA.) 
 
So what do we do now? We watch and run the numbers. 

 

[Eee Pee]

All that said, the Modi is ranked #1 on Amazon's best seller list...
 
http://www.amazon.com/Modi-USB-Digital-Analog-Convertor/dp/B00CICPN0K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418617110&sr=8-1&keywords=modi

 

[tonykaz]

Mr. 6
The quickest way to hurt is to speak the truth, in that sense you can be brutally honest. 
 
I do admire you're simple logic.
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[StefanJK]

  All that said, the Modi is ranked #1 on Amazon's best seller list...
 
http://www.amazon.com/Modi-USB-Digital-Analog-Convertor/dp/B00CICPN0K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418617110&sr=8-1&keywords=modi

Well, that's for 'musical instrument' Dacs...don't know how big that category is on Amazon.  In general, dacs don't seem to list very consistently by category, I see 'scientific instruments' and 'electronics' and a few more.  

 

[scizzro]

  We have had many people go through the whole line, some more than once. Amazon doesn't seem to care, but this is not what the return program was intended to be.

 
It's a shame people have to abuse programs intended to benefit them. Just like animals who bite the hand that feeds them...
 
That said, the thought of only one return a year makes me nervous to order new products. In the back of my mind, I'm always thinking "Hey, they might come out with some killer release later. Don't waste your return now..."
 
It can be very hard to ignore the hype and just wait for reviews to come in rather than order and review with my own ears. :'(