[HiFiChris]

 


great, thanks for the heads up! didn't know that, total newbie here.
i'll try 48KHz to make all new tests; shall try RMAA instead of Audacity for recording, as well (didn't found ASIO, or Kernel Stream in Audacity). using REW for measuring IEMs.
got many new thingies to test; but it's important to set my best gear up before starting a new measuring roundup.

REW?

Room EQ Wizard.

 

[CraftyClown]

Room EQ Wizard.

 
Thanks Chris. Are there any tutorials or guides you'd recommend for using REW with IEMs instead of speakers?

 

[HiFiChris]

Room EQ Wizard.

Thanks Chris. Are there any tutorials or guides you'd recommend for using REW with IEMs instead of speakers?

My pleasure. I'm personally using ARTA, so cannot really comment on REW.
But you'd need a measurement coupler to simulate the human ear's tonal characteristics.

Some searching for "DIY in-ear measurements" or "DIY in-ear measurement coupler" should actually lead to threads that are probably better suited for this topic as it has about nothing to do with measuring DAPs or RMA.

I am personally using the Vibro Veritas coupler at the moment, but it took me quite some time to get it at least roughly into the direction of a real IEC 711-compliant coupler's frequency response. I might switch over to something different sooner or later but don't really have any particular model in sight. There are some promising looking models on Chinese websites like TaoBao for example, and hakuzen has recently ordered one of them.

 

[CraftyClown]

My pleasure. I'm personally using ARTA, so cannot really comment on REW.
But you'd need a measurement coupler to simulate the human ear's tonal characteristics.

Some searching for "DIY in-ear measurements" or "DIY in-ear measurement coupler" should actually lead to threads that are probably better suited for this topic as it has about nothing to do with measuring DAPs or RMA.

I am personally using the Vibro Veritas coupler at the moment, but it took me quite some time to get it at least roughly into the direction of a real IEC 711-compliant coupler's frequency response. I might switch over to something different sooner or later but don't really have any particular model in sight. There are some promising looking models on Chinese websites like TaoBao for example, and @hakuzen has recently ordered one of them.

 
Thanks again mate. I've actually ordered the Veritas and am waiting for it to arrive from the states. If it's not to much trouble, would it be okay to PM you at some stage and pick your brain regarding getting it calibrated closer to the IEC 711?

 

[HiFiChris]

  Thanks again mate. I've actually ordered the Veritas and am waiting for it to arrive from the states. If it's not to much trouble, would it be okay to PM you at some stage and pick your brain regarding getting it calibrated closer to the IEC 711?

 
I'm sending you the PM already now to keep the thread on topic.

 

[CraftyClown]

   
I'm sending you the PM already now to keep the thread on topic.

 
Thanks Chris.
 
Ok, so just tested my Questyle QP1R on it's own and with 2 x different multi BA loads; Rhapsodio Solar and Westone W60.
 
Looks pretty good I think?
 
 

 

[CraftyClown]

and here are some readings from the Cowon Plenue S, again with Westone W60 and Rhapsodio Solar.
 
Not such good results I'm afraid
 
 

 

[CraftyClown]

Channel imbalance doesn't look to hot either. Or would this amount be negligible? 
 

 

[HiFiChris]

@CraftyClown
 
Thank you! I've added your results to the third post.

 
 
Both players' responses look pretty good actually. You can try it yourself, differences below 1 dB are really not that easy to spot, especially without quick A/B comparisons. 0.5 dB differences are even harder to spot and everything below is almost impossible. On good days, I am able to get a 0.3 dB difference (quick A/B-ing) with good concentration (it is still mostly a game of guessing then), but usually everything below 1 dB is not easy (well, that's an understatement) to spot without quick direct comparisons, especially if they don't take part in the midrange where our hearing is the most sensitive.
It's best to take that as a general rule (the case might be different if one is extremely used to one in-ear/headphone and very fine-grained digital volume control, but even then everything around 0.5 dB is not easy to guess at all and requires hard concentration, a quiet environment and a fresh mind).
 
Having said that, also the channel "imbalance" in post #98 is negligible and not even necessarily addressable to the DAP output but could also be caused by the cable, socket or when the computer is busy doing other things at the same time (e.g. streaming videos or caching websites when the browser is open). And even if it is, it's still below 0.2 dB and much less than what many fully analogue volume pots show in terms of imbalance.

 

[castleofargh]

I was going to write the same, the measure includes the entire loop. the very reason why Chris stuck with showing only FR in his RMAAs.

 

[CraftyClown]

  @CraftyClown
 
Thank you! I've added your results to the third post.

 
 
Both players' responses look pretty good actually. You can try it yourself, differences below 1 dB are really not that easy to spot, especially without quick A/B comparisons. 0.5 dB differences are even harder to spot and everything below is almost impossible. On good days, I am able to get a 0.3 dB difference (quick A/B-ing) with good concentration (it is still mostly a game of guessing then), but usually everything below 1 dB is not easy (well, that's an understatement) to spot without quick direct comparisons, especially if they don't take part in the midrange where our hearing is the most sensitive.
It's best to take that as a general rule (the case might be different if one is extremely used to one in-ear/headphone and very fine-grained digital volume control, but even then everything around 0.5 dB is not easy to guess at all and requires hard concentration, a quiet environment and a fresh mind).
 
Having said that, also the channel "imbalance" in post #98 is negligible and not even necessarily addressable to the DAP output but could also be caused by the cable, socket or when the computer is busy doing other things at the same time (e.g. streaming videos or caching websites when the browser is open). And even if it is, it's still below 0.2 dB and much less than what many fully analogue volume pots show in terms of imbalance.

 
 
Good point Chris. I wasn't really thinking about the fact the scaling on the graph is in 0.5db measurements. 
 
So looking at the readings of both the QP1R and Plenue S, would one expect both of these devices to sound fairly neutral?
 
Also might the QP1Rs FR all the way into the very high frequencies explain it's highly resolving reputation?

 

[CraftyClown]

  I was going to write the same, the measure includes the entire loop. the very reason why Chris stuck with showing only FR in his RMAAs.

 
The entire loop?

 

[HiFiChris]

 
So looking at the readings of both the QP1R and Plenue S, would one expect both of these devices to sound fairly neutral?

 
Both seem to have a fairly low output impedance and measure flat unloaded (which really is no wizardry these days, nonetheless some devices (some lower-end stuff and gear that is not really meant for pure audio playback) still fail to output a flat line unloaded).
What can be said though is that both don't colour the sound based on their frequency response, which is one of the basic things every audio device must have. There are other aspects though that could lead to a not-as-neutral perceived tonal character (noise floor, harmonic distortion, ...) with some of them requiring lab-grade audio interfaces and/or spectrum analyzers to really get to the very ground of why something probably sounds the way it does (e.g. warm-ish).
If one does not have that equipment (I surely do not), metrologically volume-matching two devices to output the same volume (or at least as close as possible) and then listening to the very same song at the very same time with the very same headphone and quick switching will show whether or not there are easy to distinguish differences between the two devices or not.

 

 Also might the QP1Rs FR all the way into the very high frequencies explain it's highly resolving reputation?

 

[CraftyClown]

Both seem to have a fairly low output impedance and measure flat unloaded (which really is no wizardry these days, nonetheless some devices (some lower-end stuff and gear that is not really meant for pure audio playback) still fail to output a flat line unloaded).

What can be said though is that both don't colour the sound based on their frequency response, which is one of the basic things every audio device must have. There are other aspects though that could lead to a not-as-neutral perceived tonal character (noise floor, harmonic distortion, ...) with some of them requiring lab-grade audio interfaces and/or spectrum analyzers to really get to the very ground of why something probably sounds the way it does (e.g. warm-ish).
If one does not have that equipment (I surely do not), metrologically volume-matching two devices to output the same volume (or at least as close as possible) and then listening to the very same song at the very same time with the very same headphone and quick switching will show whether or not there are easy to distinguish differences between the two devices or not.


 

Thanks Chris, I shall do some side by side listening then, as I have seen the Plenue S being described as having a warmer signature as compared to the QP1R.

You quoted the second part of my question, did you mean to answer it?

 

[HiFiChris]

Thanks Chris, I shall do some side by side listening then, as I have seen the Plenue S being described as having a warmer signature as compared to the QP1R.

 
I've read this about Cowon's DAPs not only once. Personally I cannot relate to this as both the Plenue D and Plenue M2 just sound neutral and uncoloured to me.
 
 
I actually did answer the quoted part, but for some reason it was not posted.
Anyway, what I had written was something like that it's likely that the impression of the QP1R sounding clean, clear and transparent comes from only very little hiss, a very low output impedance and presumably otherwise really good specs, too. But these are just assumptions as I've never heard the Questyle myself. And I also said that having a flat FR from 20 to 20000 Hz is no wizardry these days, even with extremely cheap DAPs ($1.49).