The reason for multi-loop feedback?
Apr 23, 2003 at 3:38 PM Post #2 of 22
What attracted me to Walt's Multi-loop feedback technique was! Just prior to Walt's land mark article, I was trying various methods of lowering the open loop gain of an op amp so as to obtain the virtues of a low feedback design like is possible with discreet components. I used several methods that were being tried at that time including but not limited to operating Op amps that had comp pins as the op amp output to drive a Buffer like the AD-744, AD-829 ect. this method allowed one to bypass the op amps internal output stage, and as such all the Distortions that it produced. While this was the primary reason for doing this technique, I thought by adding a resistor placed from this connection to ground then this would lower the gain of the VAS stage in the op-amp and thus the open loop gain of the device. This method is often used on high end discreet component designs. One disadvantage of lower open loop gain is higher errors and DC offset was one big error of a direct coupled (DC) Audio amplifier operating with a minimum of negative feedback. An alternative method I tried was to place this resistor from the Compensation pin to the inverting input. this provided local feedback to improve the linearity of the op amp while it was loading down the VAS stage to reduce the open loop gain. I was getting real happy with the sound in this configuration. No current source required on the op amp low overall negative feedback, a constant amount of negative feedback across the Audio bandwidth that produced a consistent amount of THD throughout the Audio bandwidth rather than extremely low numbers in the midrange and bass with THD rising to several times it's 1KHz value by the time it got to 20 KHz. as in Conventional design. I built several line stage preamps and a couple of headphone amps upon this Topology using several different buffers and op-amps. my Audiophile friends were real impressed with the sound and two out of three were shocked to find the units Op amp based.

then one day while eating lunch and reading my latest copy of EDN (Hard Copy version) I skipped right to the Walt's tools and tips section as I always do and lo and behold hear is part one, with Walt talking about linearity in op-amps. I could not wait until the next installment because I wanted to know how the master improved the linearity of op-Amps. was there a method of doing this with less complication, how was it going be done on op amps without compensation pins to be used as outputs. inquiring minds want to know. Since the series was just that a year long series it took a while to find out. when it was all finished I was presently surprised that by simply adding one resistor to the feedback loop I could convert My attempt into Walt's topology. This also allowed op amps with out compensation pins to be used.

The primary advantages of Walt's architecture is to get all the advantages of a low feedback design, Including Low TIM (Transient intermodulation distortion) with a simple circuit based around op-amps and Buffers. since the Op-Amp is receiving it's feedback from it's own output rather than from the output stage the Phase shift of the output stage will not impact Phase margin as much as with the conventional method of one overall feedback loop. In most cases this removes the requirement of using Phase lead capacitance around the op-amp and allows the use of modest bandwidth Output stages. this opens the door to battery operation and thus allows a ultra high quality Amp with the ability to drive headphones to go on the road yet still provide sound quality you expect to get at home. Other improvements of the Multi-loop topology are not as well known but still are important. One being the fact that the Op-amp is always provided with feedback even under abusive conditions. In a conventional overall feedback loop if the output is shorted the op-amp is not receiving any feedback and will Lock up to one of the supply rails. this places a large DC voltage upon the buffers input. since the output is shorted it is sitting at 0 VDC and will cause the Transistors of the buffers input stage to become reversed biased and cause the junctions to be damaged or Destroyed. semiconductor manufactures have included input to output protection diodes to prevent this damage. however this protection is short lived and the abusive condition must be corrected or the Diodes will overheat. This will happen regardless of whether the Buffer uses short circuit current limiting or not. Another consideration is clipping or slew limiting in which case will result in the same type of problem causing long settling times.

The multi-loop topology may not result in the lowest Distortion numbers because the distortions of the output stage are not reduced as much due to less available feedback. However as I pointed out while the numbers may not be as low as in one overall loop, thay are consistent over a wide band of frequencies. Consider that a typical Op-amp buffer combo with 100% overall feedback may have 0.0001% THD @ 1KHz this will rise with frequency because the Op-amps open loop gain is declining with frequency so by the time 20 KHz. is reached the THD could be 0.1%. this wide variation in THD will result in a Bright sounding Amp with grain and other nastiness. Now consider the multi-loop situation a typical THD at 1KHz. might be 0.1% However will still be 0.1% at 50-100 KHz. because the open loop gain is still the same as it was at 1KHz. This is of coarse a typical scenario and the actual numbers may be different however the concept is the same.
 
Apr 24, 2003 at 5:21 AM Post #3 of 22
I take it you are referring to the numerous op amps of the last few years that have greatly extended bandwidth over the 80’s to early 90’s crop of op amps. It is clear that most are aimed at xDSL applications from ~100KHz to a few MHz and they do offer outstanding specs for these applications but they do not have large (by precision or audio op amp standards) DC gains so that they don’t offer the larger gains at audio frequencies that you might expect from the larger GBW product and usually the enticingly low noise specs are spoiled by 1/f noise corner frequencies of 1-10KHz. Any device pumping out large fractions of a watt of power < 1mm away from the input stage can’t be free of thermal feedback limitations so at the very least the concept of physically separated output buffering as long recommended by Jung still seems wise.

Of course any mention of multiloop here is immediately taken to refer to Jung’s Electronic Design articles on Op Amp Audio (the unity gain output open-loop buffer version only!) as PPL mentions above; the series does make several good points if you discount the erroneous inclusion of op amp input error reduction as a feature of the inner feedback loop around the input op amp (based on the usual misunderstandings of Otala’s paper and feedback distortion reduction in general.) >>>Before inundating this thread with flames and uninformed protests (have you read Otala’s or even Walt’s articles?) please work out the consequences of my argument over on HeadWize in DIY: Opa637 Phase margin Questions:

“The meta42 variation of a multiloop amplifier with a unity-gain buffer is especially easy to analyze, just assume the buffer is perfect and that output loading is not an issue; then the buffer can be replaced with a wire and the gain equation is simplified to a single loop equation by calculating the net division ratio from the op amp output to the inverting input using both divider network components as they now appear in the circuit”


I have used several other composite/multiloop op amp amplifier topologies professionally to obtain low noise and high gains for strain gage amplifiers and low phase error in electrodeless conductivity instruments that use 20KHz AC excitation and can recommend Jerald Graeme “Amplifier Applications of Op Amps” 1999 McGraw-Hill for some multiloop circuit variety, I consider the engineering foundation of multiloop control theory to be Horowitz “Synthesis of Feedback Systems” 1963 Academic Press.
 
Apr 24, 2003 at 6:04 AM Post #4 of 22
Interesting, I would not treat the synthesis of the unity gain output buffer as a straight wire. At first this treatment seams natural and tempting, however since even at the Ideal unloaded conditions the Input impedance of the buffer is High and it's output impedance is low. So if this were a wire then the impedance would be the same at both ends of the Buffer. I can not speak for anyone else However I myself have read both the EDN and AES articles you mention.
 
Apr 24, 2003 at 5:51 PM Post #5 of 22
PPL, thanks for considering the issues;

Perhaps I didn’t make the context clear enough, the purpose of my treating the buffer as a wire is solely to analyze the effect of the multiloop feedback on distortion and stability with respect to the input op amp - the analysis can even be considered to only apply to the op amp input distortion that Jung spends so much time on, although Otala's analysis isn't limited to distortion at the input.

I claim that there is little difference in op amp behavior with 5-10K feedback resistor output loading vs the buffer Zin for the purposes that I think the approximation is informative and useful; a common simplified model of the op amp output is a 50-100 ohm resistor for which the effect of feedback R vs buffer Zin is only a few percent, it probably improves the model more to add buffer input capacitance and ignore the difference in resistive load (actually I would aproximate the buffer high frequency response with this RC).

I think the HeadFi/HeadWize community could learn something about the stability requirements of Jung’s multiloop from this sort of simplified analysis as they have incorrectly attributed loop oscillation stability to high inner feedback loop gains, in the Audio Op Amp series and Jung’s recent collection of his multiloop and audio specific circuits in “Op Amp Applications” 2002 Analog Devices Jung doesn’t make any such claim.

All engineering analysis relies on simplified models of the real world and a key part of the engineering profession is learning which models to use to approximate the behaviors you are trying to control and which aspects of the real world these models don’t capture – a professor in one of my introductory engineering courses claimed that 90% of his consulting practice only used 1st year course principles, and the knowledge and judgment gained by long experience in applying them (Ok, Ok he was a Mech E; feedback amplifier stability requires some 2nd year material.)
 
Apr 24, 2003 at 7:52 PM Post #6 of 22
I can fully understand the purpose of a buffer in order to avoid thermal distortion but I still can't see any point in using ML feedback when a high performance opamp is used. I can see the point when you want high gain, high speed and low noise and to achieve this using two amplifying elements.
 
Apr 24, 2003 at 10:05 PM Post #7 of 22
Very few opamps have constant open loop gain in whole audio range. AD8610 is the only I know of - that was the main reason I noticed this chip in the first place, informed ppl who tested it (and the rest is history) but even for this chip it is quite strange looking leading to further questions. Multiloop makes openloop gain constant in range that is wider by the factor of inner loop feedback factor - I have not yet understood how this works but I have no reason to doubt seasoned professionals. And in any case this topology is to me the best sounding so far, beating even discrete designs. Because it sounds so good, it is very popular in these forums.
 
Apr 25, 2003 at 2:21 AM Post #8 of 22
Quote:

Very few opamps have constant open loop gain in whole audio range. AD8610 is the only I know of


Aos, are you sure about this? I looked at the AD8610's datasheet, and while it doesn't specifically show the open-loop gain over the audio range, it otherwise doesn't seem to suggest anything other than a pretty typical open-loop bandwidth (i.e., well under 1 kHz). Am I missing something?
confused.gif


P.S. I think I recall Walt Jung mentioning the AD825 as having a wider-than-average open-loop bandwidth at 10 kHz or so. Also the Linear Technology LT136x op amps seem to have a higher-than-average open-loop bandwidth.
 
Apr 25, 2003 at 2:50 AM Post #9 of 22
The AD-825 data sheet showes the Avo over a wide frequency range as is typical of most op amp data sheets. the Avo of the AD-825 is lower than a Precision Op amp and when combined with the wide 42 MHz. bandwidth the Avo is somewhat constant up to about 10Khz. acording to the Data sheet.

The AD-8610 only gives the Avo above 1MHz. (TPC 15 Pg. 6) However the Psrr (TPC19 & TPC20 Pg. 7) seams to sugest the typical downward slope vs frequency one finds with most Op Amps with the Corner Frequency well below 1KHz. The Avo vs Temp. (TPC 17 & TPC18 Pg.6) also implies quite large gains. TPC 17 & TPC 18 only specify the output voltage, Load and supply voltage and not the frequency. I sure wish IC chip makers would list more compleat data like thay used to give. not even a simplified schematic is showen for this device. apperently ADI expects us to Blindly trust what is in the Box.

aos> if you look at Closed loop gain vs frequency (TPC 16 Pg. 6) see that @ a gain of 100 the Gain is flat up to about 90 KHz. if this is what the inner Loop gain is set at then the Open loop voltage gain of a multiloop is 40 dB and is consistent from DC-90-100 KHz. if the outer loop is set at a gain of 10 then the Closed loop Frequency response is constant from DC-800 KHz. this results in a Amplifier system with only 20 dB of Overall negitive feedback A typical target for High quality Audio Amplifiers. this also makes the output impedance and THD consistent well beyond the Audio Range. This data is for illistration only and the actual numbers are aproximations, However the Point is easy to understand by using this method.
 
Apr 25, 2003 at 5:36 AM Post #10 of 22
The data sheet for the AD825 indicates a typical open loop gain of 76db (1K load) which is somewhat low for opamps. Due to the large GBP of 26 Mhz (typical) this results in a (typical) open loop bandwidth of ~4000 hz. This is higher (better?) than the AD8620 and most others (do the math). For this reason and others (subjective) I find this amp a better choice. The AD8620 has a better offset voltage and noise spec but not a better sound.

I am now testing the AD8021. The GBP is variable (1 Ghz?) and the open-loop gain is about 50kHz as far as I can tell. Order your samples and reach your own conclusions. The 1/f noise corner is about 10Khz.

I don't understand the voodoo surrounding the multi-loop feedback used in the META42. I use a 10pf cap to provide lead comp in the inner loop against a 10K ohm resistor. Again do the math (1.6 Mhz?). I think it sounds better than the standard resistor values.

Just my 25 cents worth.
 
Apr 25, 2003 at 7:56 AM Post #11 of 22
Joe: Apparently you are parroting what I just stated about the AD-825 and AD-8610. On the AD-825 data sheet we find The open loop gain and Phase graph (Fig.8 Pg.5) that the Avo is 70dB from 1KHz. to 10KHz. The Speed and bandwidth if the AD-825 are by design Higher than the AD-8610 because of the Different applications these two devices are intended for. the AD-825 is for Video and other applications that require High frequency Performance. the AD-8610 is for precision applications and as such DC offset and low noise are important hear. I must say that the Speed and bandwidth performance of the AD-8610 are plenty good for Audio use.

The choice of To Multi-loop or not to multi-loop is a personal design preference. This is also true of what type of op Amp to use. regarding frequency compensation my view on this are, While from a technical aspect the use of a phase lead cap around the op amp will prevent all sorts of transient response and oscillation issues for op amps that are unity gain stable, I try to avoid any frequency compensation if possible and most importantly Noise gain or phase lead. to my ears these compensation methods completely destroy the sound. Regarding the sound of the AD-8610 and AD-825. I liked the sound of the AD-825 overall However it is Bright sounding and is prone to sibilance. When the AD-8610/20 came out I found it is like a Breath of fresh air no grain what so ever, ultra smooth. these qualities are available in other op-amps as well like the OPA-637, OPA-627, AD-845, AD-744, LT-1122, Ect… The big advantage the AD-8610 has over these is it also is detailed and revealing with lots of air. On the other hand the afore mentioned precision devices tend to sound dark, at least to my ears anyway.

please post your findings on the AD-8021. I was going to test some of these however the AD-8065 and AD-8066 devices kind of turned me off on that concept of employing both a JET and BJT front end. I would tend to think that the transition from one to the other would introduce large amounts of distortion in the transition range. I did try it on the assumption that I would never approach this transition range anyway. I did not like the sound of these devices. I was real impressed at how stable they are considering the high bandwidth they have.
 
Apr 26, 2003 at 10:50 AM Post #12 of 22
Quote:

Originally posted by ppl since the Op-Amp is receiving it's feedback from it's own output rather than from the output stage the Phase shift of the output stage will not impact Phase margin as much as with the conventional method of one overall feedback loop. In most cases this removes the requirement of using Phase lead capacitance around the op-amp and allows the use of modest bandwidth Output stages.


Clearly several of you have blinding knowledge of the interworkings of these units..
I hope to be there someday and am currently as "green" as they come in this hobby. Would any of you be so kind as to reccomend any good websites best suited to begin such a journey? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
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Apr 26, 2003 at 2:09 PM Post #14 of 22
Thanks for the welcome and the links.. I will check them out tonight when I go back to work. Do you think that they are good for such a "greenie" who really doesn't fully understand the function of a capacitor or most of the other components involved. I mean I don't even know what all possible alternatives to an "op amp" there are or why one would be better than the rest.. We are talking green here!!

I guess what I am getting at is that I would like to find a place to learn extreme detail of why and how all of the individual components function...
 
Apr 26, 2003 at 2:36 PM Post #15 of 22

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