[CarstenF]

Forgot yo mention that the output doubles to 2v in balanced mode.

So you don't need an extra amp then for say 250 Ohm headphones?

What's the output impedance of pono in balanced mode? And what do you do in balanced mide if your headphones don't have a changeable cable such as Denon Ah D2000?

 

[Musickiks]

Hi guys, first time on this forum.

Since I'm a pretty big novice when it comes to audiophile equipment and listening, you might be interested in my thoughts on the Pono. Got mine 2 days ago. I have a few high res files, and vinyl rips. But mainly listen to 320kbps mp3's, or 256 AAC. I am in a band who's recorded for years in super nice studios and have the pleasure of listening to our stuff through Oceanwaves several times a month. Not to mention the frustrations we've had with mixing, I might as well be a professional "mix" critiquer at this point. Other than that I am no real audiophile, but I trust my ears at this point.

I also have a few questions if y'all can help...
 
I usually listen to music either from my Mac desktop, straight into my KRK Rokit 5 monitors, or from my Mac through to a Headroom Airhead portable amp, and my Sennheiser HD 600's. I've thought about picking up a Valhalla, but haven't gotten that crazy yet. And this is my first time ever using a DAC. So I have no other experience with DAC's to compare it to. And unfortunately no experience with vinyls through a good soundsystem either, not yet...

My questions...
 
My first question is, can the Pono power the Sennheiser HD 600's no problem? or does it still need the amp? I couldn't notice much of a difference. And while we're at it, can the Iphone 6 power those cans or does it for sure need the amp?

Secondly, when I plug in my monitors straight to the Pono, using the line out, all volume options on the player freeze up, it doesn't let you control the volume through the player. Is that just a bug for me? Or does it go "max volume" so on high end systems you just use the systems volume? Well since, I can't control the volume through the monitors, I've been forced to use the headphone jack for the monitors. Which brings up my next question...How bad is that in coloring the sound? Using the monitors through the headphone jack instead of the line out? Does it matter? How would I get around this problem, unless they update the software to not freeze the volume up when you insert into the line out jack?

Thirdly, I can't seem to push my volume enough with my Pono and HD 600's. Even if I put the amp in between, it's still "3 mac volume notches" down from what my cans+airhead+mac are capable of. I wonder why that is?


Now for my thoughts on the player:

Through my KRK Rokit 5's (which I've heard can be a bit darker and boxy and "glue-y" and less airy compared to say, Adams, and this is through the headphone jack:

- I definitely hear what I perceive to be an "analogue" sound. It seems like there's more "glue" to the sound.

- Elements come off more realistic, sometimes even creepily in that it just doesn't sound as much of a digital representation. Snare sounds and vocals come off warmer, smoother and natural, overall more pleasing to the ears. Guitars have a nice grounded tangibility to them. 
 
- There seems to be a slight touch of clarity loss, compared to listening straight through my Mac. A little bit darker of a sound, which reminds me of vinyl rips. But this also seems to bring out other elements, that aren't as easily perceived by the ears. Such as reverb on cymbals and stuff like that, which makes those elements almost even sound more clear, or at least more natural and realistic is my only way to describe it, like it's actually there, compared to just hearing a recording of the sound. I specifically hear this in the difference when listening to my hi-res 192/24bit Beach Boys Pet Sounds files. Specifically the intro the Caroline No, is astoundingly realistic sounding, compared to through just my mac. Which may be the case with all DAC's I'm not sure...But it's quite a nice special thing to hear you've been missing when listening to music.

- A slightly more 3-D type sound, once again, reminds me of vinyl rips.

- Overall despite what appears to be a very slight drop in clarity/high end, I appreciate the warmth, realism, and tangibility, even intimacy, compared to listening just straight through the Mac into the monitors.

Through my Sennheiser HD 600's, this all kind of falls by the wayside (though I did a 5 hour listen through first on these yesterday, then moved to my speakers later yesterday and now today, haven't given the cans a review today, but from yesterday:

- I hear a definite clarity or textural loss. Such as little sounds, that will be really articulated and vibrant through the cans+airhead+mac, here will be much more subtle and pushed back (though the "pushed back, could be due to not quite getting the volume at the same volume level as my cans+airhead_mac, though warmer.

- Vocals, as through monitors, have a more natural warmer tone to them.

- Kick drums seem to sometimes be more clear and warmer, or at times slightly held back, depending on the song.
 
- The sound as a whole comes off a bit more tinny and almost compressed. Where as cans with mac, it sounds bigger, wider and more "open".

- I hear a bit of that "glue" analogue sound for sure still, it's just not quite as appealing as when listening through my monitors, as sounds sound a bit more squished. Which really sucks. Maybe It's just a bit of a break in thing?

- There is a strange analogue "ear tickle" thing that goes on with certain sounds, that have some textures to them, and I mean this in a good way, it's a very pleasing, like tangible feeling. Like when sounds "whir" or "flutter". Yet I hear the loss of clarity at the same time. Seems to be a trade off.

- So far with cans, I definitely prefer my cans+airhead+mac listening. Hopefully this changes due to some change whatever it may be...

Other thoughts:

- Battery life seems to be incredible
- The player is a bit a oldschool, but it's also kind of nice/fun to use. Despite not quite being as precise and intuitive as it could be, such as when scrolling and it accidentally picking where you put your finger to scroll. Maybe an update will fix that.
- Doesn't say what quality file you're playing, it just gives you the khz, but not the bits.
- PonoMusic World is absolutely terrible, and horribly buggy. Though when i saw you can just search things, then drop and drag it got quite a bit easier to use, but any fast scrolling especially if it's in the left side panel will crash the app.
- While the idea of the hi-res track shop is great. I don't like being strong-armed into having to buy full albums, separate tracks say "coming soon", and who knows when they'll actually make separate tracks available. It seems other hi-res sites are like this, which is kind of BS, imo.
- I don't see that there's anyway to search for hi-res tracks, which funnily enough would lead to more purchases from me just to hear some more hi-res music through the Pono. 
- There doesn't seem to be almost any "high-res" versions of albums I want. Only 44.1khz, CD quality files. Which while nice, is not really what we were promised which is super high-res files of all major label albums. Now of course, they're working on it and it will come in time (hopefully), but it's pretty lame to market this thing and then not have the high-res files to back it up. Instead forcing most people to listen to their 320kbps files.


As for me, Pono into my monitors (using the headphone jack?) has been really wonderful, to the point of giving me the chills on a fairly consistent basis, or maybe it's just cold in here. Where as I was pretty unhappy when first listening through my HD 600's...Well those are my initial thoughts, from a relatively nubile audiophile enthusiast. Cheers!
 

 

[flatmap]

So you don't need an extra amp then for say 250 Ohm headphones?

What's the output impedance of pono in balanced mode? And what do you do in balanced mide if your headphones don't have a changeable cable such as Denon Ah D2000?

The Sennheiser HD 650s are 300 ohms and work well directly without an additional amp.  Usually I would pair them 
with my OTL Bottlehead Crack, but with the Pono's output stage there's no need.  The Pono player also sounds great with
my IEMs and regular 32 ohm headphones.  So I think you'd be fine with 250 Ohm.
 
The player also accepts single ended headphones.  When you want to use balanced, you use a balanced cable and first click on "Balanced Mode" in
the players settings.  So basically the player has two modes of operation.

 

[flatmap]

  [...]
My questions...
 
My first question is, can the Pono power the Sennheiser HD 600's no problem? or does it still need the amp? I couldn't notice much of a difference. And while we're at it, can the Iphone 6 power those cans or does it for sure need the amp?

Secondly, when I plug in my monitors straight to the Pono, using the line out, all volume options on the player freeze up, it doesn't let you control the volume through the player. Is that just a bug for me? Or does it go "max volume" so on high end systems you just use the systems volume? Well since, I can't control the volume through the monitors, I've been forced to use the headphone jack for the monitors. Which brings up my next question...How bad is that in coloring the sound? Using the monitors through the headphone jack instead of the line out? Does it matter? How would I get around this problem, unless they update the software to not freeze the volume up when you insert into the line out jack?

Thirdly, I can't seem to push my volume enough with my Pono and HD 600's. Even if I put the amp in between, it's still "3 mac volume notches" down from what my cans+airhead+mac are capable of. I wonder why that is?
[...]

Hey Musickiks, welcome to head-fi.  I hope you enjoy your time here.
 
Based on my experience with the Sennheiser HD 650 and also reading people's experience with the HD 600, I don't think you're going to need
an additional amp when using the Pono.  You can get some additional "bite" and precision by re-cabling the HD 600 with balanced, but I don't
think that's a requirement.
 
On the question of just using your iPhone with the HD 600, it will make sound, but I don't think these high impedance 'phones will really 
come alive with this combo.  You just won't be hearing what the HD 600 is capable of.  IMO.
 
When you're using the Audio Line Out, there is an option in the settings of the Pono Player where you can make this a fixed output
or variable output.  Sounds like it is on fixed output now, which is what you want if you're going to control volume through your system.
But you can uncheck this setting if you want to control system volume from the player itself.
 
On volume, I guess it has to be that your mac+airhead has overall higher gain.  I'm pretty sure I never listen to my HD 650's higher than
about 2/3 or 3/4 total volume on the Pono. You do have the option of going balanced with the HD 600's and this will give you a bit 
more power if needed.  But do be careful of your hearing!  

 

[FastAndBulbous]

I use HD600s and have tried them with standard cable, standard modified to balanced, after market Litz cable and aftermarket balanced Litz cable. The Litz were supplied by Custom Cans in the UK, they now list them as a standard product. I sent them the pin outs and they supplied the cable sin short order. Around $100 in the US of A, £69 UK as I recall. 
 
I found the standard cables and Pono to be not really sufficient in terms of volume - just about OK on stuff that is recorded at a high level, not so good on quieter albums. And sounded veiled and flat. The move to Litz cables sounds better in all the ways you would expect but no more volume. Modding the standard cable to balanced mode (pretty straightforward 0 2 x 3.5mm TRS plugs and a soldering iron) brings lots of benefits. Volume obviously, but more detail, better dynamics, spaciousness, sound stage. The move to balanced and Litz is well worthwhile, more of the same really and a good upgrade. 
 
My own view would be either go balanced using the standard cable and mods if funds won't permit an upgrade to better cable. But decent cable and balanced mode an the 600s work very well together. Just occasionally I would like them to go a bit louder, but not often. And no headphone amp needed. I put the tech sheets together on the Pono forum, will see if I can post them here - members on the site are finding them helpful.
 
 best
 
i

 

[Musickiks]

Ah, appreciate all the help! The fixed/not fixed line output setting fixed the problem. It's like imagining a new Pono update came out...lol. Out of curiosity, what would change now that I'm going through the line out with my monitors, instead of the headphone jack?

As for headphone + amp, but it just makes me wonder because on my Mac, small details stick out much more, and I think part of is that the volume gets about 2 notches higher, but the "squished" sound still worries me...but hopefully it just needs to be broken in a bit. It's sounding so good through my monitors.

Does my review sound somewhat correct? As in, are things I speak of hearing elements of listening through a nice DAC/DAP?

 

[FastAndBulbous]

Pricing details on the Pono store are not yet finalised. There have been issues with getting all the price codes sorted out. There will be a few updates before it is all done, price wise. It is categorically Beta, as is Pono Music World software.

 

[flatmap]

[..] I found the standard cables and Pono to be not really sufficient in terms of volume - just about OK on stuff that is recorded at a high level, not so good on quieter albums. 
[...]

So I wonder if there is some intrinsic difference between the 600s and 650s, then?  Or is it that my HD 650s is one of the older models, perhaps.
But I have no problems with low volumes going single ended with the HD 650s.  
 
Or maybe I have delicate hearing!  

 

[CarstenF]

The Sennheiser HD 650s are 300 ohms and work well directly without an additional amp.  Usually I would pair them 
with my OTL Bottlehead Crack, but with the Pono's output stage there's no need.  The Pono player also sounds great with
my IEMs and regular 32 ohm headphones.  So I think you'd be fine with 250 Ohm.

The player also accepts single ended headphones.  When you want to use balanced, you use a balanced cable and first click on "Balanced Mode" in
the players settings.  So basically the player has two modes of operation.

With a headphone with a fixed cable, would there still be an advantage in sound quality by using balanced mode out of the pono and combining the two leads into a 3.5 or 6.3mm jack into which you then plug the headphones? Sort of defeats the object to some extent but it would give you twice the voltage?

 

[flatmap]

With a headphone with a fixed cable, would there still be an advantage in sound quality by using balanced mode out of the pono and combining the two leads into a 3.5 or 6.3mm jack into which you then plug the headphones? Sort of defeats the object to some extent but it would give you twice the voltage?

If I understand the rewiring you're thinking about....I think it won't work.  And there is a likelihood that you could damage the player.  
In fact whenever you switch the Pono's settings to "balanced mode", you get a warning pop-up about not plugging in the
wrong kind of connectors.  
 
But you're right, if you were able to go balanced, which it sounds like you can't, that would likely give you a bigger window
of success for your cans.  So still some uncertainty.  You could possibly go to the Pono Forum and ask if anyone there
is using what you have...

 

[maclenltd]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but any particular recommendations for burning in? I received my player last week and find it bright, even with music that is 24/88 and above and doesn't sound bright with other DACs. Should pink or white noise be used, or just whatever music I have? Should the player be given a chance to rest or run straight through on shuffle for a few days?

 

[Saraguie]

With a headphone with a fixed cable, would there still be an advantage in sound quality by using balanced mode out of the pono and combining the two leads into a 3.5 or 6.3mm jack into which you then plug the headphones? Sort of defeats the object to some extent but it would give you twice the voltage?

Never, ever plug an unbalanced headphone into a balanced out of any source. You can go the other way but never unbalanced into balanced.

 

[FastAndBulbous]

As others have said, please do not do as you suggest. I am looking to get the Tech Sheets on balanced mode operation with the PonoPlayer to put here to help people.
 
best
 
i

 

[Ableza]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but any particular recommendations for burning in? I received my player last week and find it bright, even with music that is 24/88 and above and doesn't sound bright with other DACs. Should pink or white noise be used, or just whatever music I have? Should the player be given a chance to rest or run straight through on shuffle for a few days?

I've had mine for several weeks now with tons of use and it sounds exactly the same as it did on day one.  Do not waste your time.

 

[maclenltd]

I've had mine for several weeks now with tons of use and it sounds exactly the same as it did on day one.  Do not waste your time.

That's what I feared. So this is basically a "clinical" sounding DAC from Ayre. I really wish they would add EQ functionality in a future firmware update, or this may be very well going on eBay.