[oneway23]

  the guy is right,the overwhelming majority of what is offered in the pono store is FLAC and that has been around for a long time....Hi-Rez may or may not be better than a well mastered FLAC copy but it takes up tons of room and costs a fortune and that too is already available....kudos to Neil Young for trying to get people to listen to better sounding music but Pono is simply another device that already exists from several manufacturers 

 
When did Amazon and iTunes begin selling loseless files?  
We don't have Qobuz in the US...

 

[FFBookman]

  the guy is right,the overwhelming majority of what is offered in the pono store is FLAC and that has been around for a long time....Hi-Rez may or may not be better than a well mastered FLAC copy but it takes up tons of room and costs a fortune and that too is already available....kudos to Neil Young for trying to get people to listen to better sounding music but Pono is simply another device that already exists from several manufacturers 

a nice digital DAP does exist in limited numbers. there was little momentum in the marketplace though.
 
where I think Neil is unique is he is making the store and pressuring labels to remaster at 24/192 and then release as an open FLAC for his store. 
 
once the 24bit files are out they could all be bootlegged and made invaluable, but he's just trying to get them all mastered at 24bit and have something he can play it on. there will never be a fool-proof solution for bootleggers.

 

[FFBookman]

Preliminary PonoPlayer Battery Tests (more coming):
 
Dead to full charge, from US wall jack = 3:20
  note that it only took 1 hour to get to 70% charge, another 2:20 to top it off.
 
Standby/sleep battery time = ~ 48 hours
  note that this is not shutting it down
 
I realize play-time is what everyone is concerned with but I haven't done that test yet. Thought I'd share what I have so far.

 

[doctorjazz]

also does the guy even say he's heard it?  of course not.

no one that i can find anywhere has heard ponoplayer playing 24bit files and wants to give it back, or slam it online.

it's basic.  hear it first. then review your math and make up your mind.

even scopes are searching for signal. the song or voice. the microphones are built to pick up the main signal, i get it. we all focus on it. but the trick of it all is that they leave most of the signal as they reduce but they take the room, the rest, the out of focus, not on the scopes type of stuff.   it's not math it's music.

music is about timbre, tune, and the interactions of both frequencies and time cues. the casual listener doesn't think about reverb accuracy but they feel it. they get it, or at least they used to.  



show me a single person slamming the ponoplayer that actually has one around to use in their life and i'll believe it and consider them deaf.

[COLOR=FF00AA]I'm sure he didn't bother to listen to it, why should he, he "knows" the TRUTH![/COLOR]

the guy is right,the overwhelming majority of what is offered in the pono store is FLAC and that has been around for a long time....Hi-Rez may or may not be better than a well mastered FLAC copy but it takes up tons of room and costs a fortune and that too is already available....kudos to Neil Young for trying to get people to listen to better sounding music but Pono is simply another device that already exists from several manufacturers 

Huh? It's true that there are other DAPs out there that will play hi rez files, I have some (Fiio X3 and iBasso DX90...you can even get software to be able to play them on a phone). As was stated, these are niche products, limited acceptance by enthusiasts. The Pono team seems to have their site on bringing up the sound quality across the board, which requires getting the masses to REALIZE there is a difference. There was a time that it was a matter of pride for record labels to release good sounding recordings, and advertise that/post it on the cover. That day is long gone...convenience has taken over, trumping all other considerations. Remember SACD? How far did that attempt at better sounding digital go? If Neil and crew can get people to at least REALIZE THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN SOUND, AND BETTER SOUND CAN BE APPRECIATED BY ANYONE AND MAKE THE MUSIC MORE ENJOYABLE, his work is done, I say. People don't hesitate to spend thousands on video systems, but the "perfect sound forever" mentality since CD release KILLED sound and audio.
As to the files themselves, there is no question that they take up more space and cost more. Sure, you can get FLAC, certainly beats MP3, you have to spend more for higher resolution, but, you have to spend more for a Lexus than a Kia...they will both drive you where you want to go. Whether the extra expense to do it with the "higher end" product depends on how much you value that difference, and how much you are willing/able to spend. No difference here. The difference, though, is that, even if you can't afford the Lexus, or don't care that much about the smooth ride, acceleration, etc, you likely still do appreciate that there IS a difference, just that it's not worth the expense to you. This is different in music, where people are often shocked to hear good sound in a good system, they have no idea they have been missing out on anything! Digital is perfect, after all. We can't hear anything above what the designers of CD sampled. MP3 only removes parts we don't hear anyway. And so on, and so on, and Scooby dooby dooby...
Nuff said for now...

 

[olddude]

I like my hi-res stuff but a hi-res version of a poorly recorded or poorly mixed or poorly mastered track is going to sound poorly.  I had some David Bowie 24bit that did not sound good at all.  I'm listening to him in 16/44 and it sounds better.
 
That said, I have lots of hi-res 24bit and DSD that sounds fantastic.  The Neil stuff that was remastered for hi-res is truly superb.  I don't care about file size if the end result is great sound.  
 
The Pono, to my ears, is quite good.  It is better than my Fiio X5, which surprised me.  Others have said it is equal to their DX90s and AK120s.  All I know is that it a very good device.  Lots of people here have opinions about what sounds good to THEM.  Fine.  No point in arguing what is good when we all hear differently.  
 
To me, the Pono and a good 16/44 sounds very good.  And the Pono with hi-res sounds very very good.  That's all I care about.
 
Oh, and the guy in the link?  I certainly don't agree with him.  A long time ago scientists proved bees couldn't fly (wingspan/lift/weight).  Guess what?  They can.   

 

[Ham Sandwich]

  Preliminary PonoPlayer Battery Tests (more coming):
 
Dead to full charge, from US wall jack = 3:20
  note that it only took 1 hour to get to 70% charge, another 2:20 to top it off.
 
Standby/sleep battery time = ~ 48 hours
  note that this is not shutting it down
 
I realize play-time is what everyone is concerned with but I haven't done that test yet. Thought I'd share what I have so far.

 
Try testing standby/sleep with nothing connected to the output jacks (headphone or line-out).  And then with a line-out or headphone connected.
It seems to me in my use that the sleep mode has more battery drain if something is connected to the output jacks. But I haven't done any careful or even uncareful testing to confirm.

 

[FFBookman]

   
Try testing standby/sleep with nothing connected to the output jacks (headphone or line-out).  And then with a line-out or headphone connected.
It seems to me in my use that the sleep mode has more battery drain if something is connected to the output jacks. But I haven't done any careful or even uncareful testing to confirm.

My standby/sleep test was done without anything plugged in.  I will do the next one with something plugged in.
 
So far my listening test is projecting to about 7+ hours total playback time, if the battery % is close to real.
I've burned about 25-30% charge in 2 hours of shuffling songs of various quality, at 50-80% volume, through unbalanced jack to sennheiser hd-203. All songs are on internal storage (not sure if that matters).

 

[FFBookman]

have i mentioned that this thing sounds sweet? i want all 24bit right now, i'll even take the 16bit FLAC's if i didn't have to rebuy or re-rip them all again. i wish they were just magically on my ponoplayer where they belong. it tickles my ears and bumrushes my emotions. 

 

[olddude]

Even good 16/44 rips sound really good.  I just ripped Axis, Bold As Love, and it sounds fantastic, loads of detail in the aural environment- which is amazing considering that I stopped listening to Jimi when I stopped some other things I was doing, because he just didn't sound the same that way.  On the Pono, he just about does.

Where're my love beads and Paisley shirt and patchouli oil?  OMG, where's my hair!!!!???? 

 

[jlbrach]

Originally Posted by jlbrach 
 
the guy is right,the overwhelming majority of what is offered in the pono store is FLAC and that has been around for a long time....Hi-Rez may or may not be better than a well mastered FLAC copy but it takes up tons of room and costs a fortune and that too is already available....kudos to Neil Young for trying to get people to listen to better sounding music but Pono is simply another device that already exists from several manufacturers 
 
When did Amazon and iTunes begin selling loseless files?  
We don't have Qobuz in the US...
 
 
i personally have 500 GB of music I have downloaded in FLAC from my own CD's and a good part of it is on my Astell Kern DAP!....there are several places to buy Hi-Rez albums and many ways to get FLAC or the equivalent onto numerous high end DAP's.....I think it is a good thing that Young wants people to educate people that better sounding music exists but lets stop pretending Pono is reinventing the wheel because they arent!When I first heard about Pono I thought they had invented some new codec to compete with FLAC and MP# etc...I was very disappointed to learn it was just yet another DAP capable of playing Hi-Rez!

 

[Ham Sandwich]

 
have i mentioned that this thing sounds sweet? i want all 24bit right now, i'll even take the 16bit FLAC's if i didn't have to rebuy or re-rip them all again. i wish they were just magically on my ponoplayer where they belong. it tickles my ears and bumrushes my emotions. 

 
It does sound really neat.  The PonoPlayer has a set-back soundstage.  It sets you back several rows from the stage.  It projects the soundstage in front of your forehead instead of between your ears.  The headstage extends like a horseshoe around the front of your head.  The sound is very open.  In a way that allows the headphone ear cups to disappear.  There is room in the headstage/soundstage for depth.  It has the sense of having some crossfeed without the aid of actual crossfeed.  The sound goes spacial and just flows over you.  With an appropriate recording the sound just sounds natural in space and presentation.  Nothing is forced.  Very audiophile.  Very relaxed and easy listening.
 
I also have a Cavalli Liquid Fire.  The Liquid Fire also has a set-back soundstage and headstage.  It puts you several rows back from the stage, much like the PonoPlayer does.  It has a similar horseshoe around the front of your head style of headstage.  Right now I'm listening to my PonoPlayer connected to a Schiit Lyr and using Audeze LCD-2 rev 2 headphones.  The combination has me thinking I'm listening to a baby Liquid Fire.  Similar headstage experience.  Detail isn't the same (the Lyr can't do that).  Bass isn't the same (PonoPlayer doesn't do that).  But the headstage experience is similar.  Pretty awesome.
 
Try the PonoPlayer with various headphones.  The set-back soundstage works better with good headphones that are able to fill in the center of the image.  If the headphones aren't able to fill in the center of the image the overall sound in the center and in the midrange will sound thin.  If things sound too thin, or if the center is missing, look for headphones that are better able to fill in the center.
 
Try the PonoPlayer with a variety of genres and recording styles.  Some recording/mixing styles don't mesh well with the set-back and spatial headstage presentation.  Some recording styles or mixing styles rely on having the sound presented forward.  Playing those recording on a PonoPlayer or on a an amp like the Liquid Fire will sound limp dick.  Bass and drive will be lacking because both the bass and drive rely on having the sound presented forward rather than set-back and spatial.  Some recordings will sound like a magical experience on the PonoPlayer.  Some will sound all limp dick.  Enjoy the PonoPlayer for the recordings it makes magical.  Classical music recordings, movie soundtrack orchestral recordings, choral recordings, acoustic recordings, recordings that try to have some acoustic style space done naturally, and similar recordings are likely to have magic with the PonoPlayer.  Recordings done close mic'ed in the studio and then processed on the mixing board to create a fake exaggerated sense of space may not sound so good on the PonoPlayer.  Try a variety of recordings that you have and you'll find what suits the PonoPlayer and what doesn't.  You may also find yourself listening louder on the PonoPlayer than with other players.  It's easy to listen louder because the sound is smooth and spacial rather than forced and pumpy.  It's similar with the Liquid Fire.  I listen to the Liquid Fire louder than I do with other amps.  I think some of that has to do with the set-back headstage presentation.  Louder makes it a little more forward and a little more energy.  The smooth and spatial and unforced sound also makes it easier on the ears when listening loud.
 
The set-back soundstage means some recordings aren't going to sound right.  And it's not the sort of sound that is going to get you pumped up while you're exercising or getting prepared to go play football.  The set-back soundstage is about letting the music surround you and wash over you.  It's the difference between audiophile two channel listening and home theater listening.  Home theater is about impact and force.  Audiophile two channel is about space and depth and soundstage and layers and having the speakers disappear and having the music just flow.  Use the PonoPlayer for the audiophile style experience.  Use a different player if you want to put a home theater or dance club on your head.
 
All my listening so far has been unbalanced.  Haven't tried the balanced output modes yet.
 
I'm listening to Beck "Sea Change" right now.  192 kHz stereo ripped from the BluRay Audio.  PonoPlayer -> Lyr -> LCD-2 rev 2 == awesome.  The combo is a baby Liquid Fire.

 

[doctorjazz]

But that's exactly the point...go up to anyone and ask them what they think about the A & K player or high bit rates, they'll give you a blank stare. Ask them if they heard of Neil Young, you have a good chance they have. Ask if they heard of his new, better sounding digital music player, there is a good chance they have, as it has been covered by many mainstream outlets, not always positively, but any exposure is better than being unknown. Music is a business...it's driven by sales. If only enthusiasts want hi rez, we'll keep getting new versions of Jazz at the Pawnshop or Miles' Kind of Blue. Your hot indie band now releases vinyl, because there is a demand! If other good sounding sources are in demand, we'll have mo're good sounding music to listen to. If not, it likely goes the way of SACD. THAT'S what Mr Young is providing, IMO (not to mention that I have the Fiio X3, iBasso DX90, Pono sounds better than either, and is easier to use (haven't gotten to compare it to the A&K).

Originally Posted by jlbrach 

 

the guy is right,the overwhelming majority of what is offered in the pono store is FLAC and that has been around for a long time....Hi-Rez may or may not be better than a well mastered FLAC copy but it takes up tons of room and costs a fortune and that too is already available....kudos to Neil Young for trying to get people to listen to better sounding music but Pono is simply another device that already exists from several manufacturers 

 

When did Amazon and iTunes begin selling loseless files?  

We don't have Qobuz in the US...


i personally have 500 GB of music I have downloaded in FLAC from my own CD's and a good part of it is on my Astell Kern DAP!....there are several places to buy Hi-Rez albums and many ways to get FLAC or the equivalent onto numerous high end DAP's.....I think it is a good thing that Young wants people to educate people that better sounding music exists but lets stop pretending Pono is reinventing the wheel because they arent!When I first heard about Pono I thought they had invented some new codec to compete with FLAC and MP# etc...I was very disappointed to learn it was just yet another DAP capable of playing Hi-Rez!

 

[doctorjazz]

OOps, another double post (that's what happens when I use my phone...)

 

[charleski]

Remember SACD? How far did that attempt at better sounding digital go?

Isn't this the whole point? The industry has already tried selling over-specced music. SACD isn't dead, but it's confined to a small carriage-trade niche. The same will remain true for hires downloads, especially since they're being marked-up to maintain their carriage-trade status. Complaining about it is really just beating a dead horse at this point. If you're worried about people hearing their music properly, trying to proselytise hires music pales in comparison to getting them to ditch their Apple earbuds, or buy a proper set of headphones instead of overpriced Beats abominations.
 
[Of course the whole question of whether there's any actual benefit to hires beyond better mastering is a horse that been reduced to a skeleton at this point. I know I can't hear the difference.]

 

[FFBookman]

  Isn't this the whole point? The industry has already tried selling over-specced music. SACD isn't dead, but it's confined to a small carriage-trade niche. The same will remain true for hires downloads, especially since they're being marked-up to maintain their carriage-trade status. Complaining about it is really just beating a dead horse at this point. If you're worried about people hearing their music properly, trying to proselytise hires music pales in comparison to getting them to ditch their Apple earbuds, or buy a proper set of headphones instead of overpriced Beats abominations.
 
[Of course the whole question of whether there's any actual benefit to hires beyond better mastering is a horse that been reduced to a skeleton at this point. I know I can't hear the difference.]

It pained me to admit it, but when Neil said "HD" is like "natural food" (there's no set definition, it can be anything) and then said "These days 16/44 is high-resolution. But we can go higher."
 
He's right. Just getting people to listen to CD-quality on dedicated devices again would be a victory, and a reversal of the march away from quality. 
 
 
The real powerful thing is to get the masses to turn at all, to consider quality for the first time in generations. I argue heartily for 24bit because I hear it clearly in the space and accuracy of the material and the room it was recorded in, and I have also been trained to know what to listen for. I'm poor and just love good loud music (maybe more than some on these types of boards) and I don't want better sounding music to be kept in some snobby niche. It's for everyone because it nurtures everyone.
 
If you don't hear 24bit advantage for yourself all I'd ask is that you still push 16/44 advantage to whoever asks and don't degrade the theory of higher resolution. You could say "in certain circumstances, with certain music, certain listeners, and certain playback systems, advantages are heard with higher resolutions. The advantage is hard to track using our current instruments, but musicians and critical listeners swear by it."
 
It doesn't dismiss it but it doesn't overhype it either.