[Tavilyn]

Hello, yet again,
I just got a pair of Soundmagic HP200 yesterday. This makes four audiophile-grade headphones I've tried now, and I'm starting to worry. Below, I'll summarize each pair I've owned and why I did or did not like them
DT880
Pros: very clear, big soundstage, permeable (sound gets in, sound gets out, it works both ways), comfortable, good treble that didn't sound too sparkly
Cons: not much bass even with Bass Boost from E10K, not too loud, everything sounded sort of far away
Sennheiser HD598
Pros: big soundstage, light and comfortable, adequate but not great bass, gets plenty loud if I want it to via amp, very sound-permeable both ways
Cons: feels cheap (this isn't a big one, but it did dismay me when I picked it up the first time), what sounds like a treble dip that crushes bell-like ride sounds and the like, slightly muffled quality across the board
Fidelio X2
Pros: memory foam earcups that ensure my ears don't touch the drivers, big warm bass without making bass dominate, decent soundstage, strange but rather appealing construction (headband and fit, etc)
Cons: same treble dip that appears to bug the HD598 but to a lesser extent, sybillant sounds that are just slightly rolled off, nonpermeable (they leak sound but sound doesn't get in very well), huge (seriously, they stick out to either side and well above my head; this isn't a fatal flaw, but they definitely don't travel well at all and portability is nice if not utterly necessary
Soundmagic HP200
Pros: Light and flexible (almost too flexible really), comfortable earcups, strong bass when called upon, nice soundstage, good but not great detail separation
Cons: treble a little on the hot side, bass only really seems to come out and play when the amp is cranked, sometimes vocals sound much closer than almost everything else, almost as nonpermeable as the x2 (more on this in just a sec)
You might be wondering why I'm talking about sound getting in as well as sound getting out...well, it's simple, really. If an open-back headphone allows sound in, it's probably going to be more airy than if it doesn't let sound in; that, and part of the reason to have open-backs is so you aren't completely trapped in your own head. If an open-back isn't particularly airy and doesn't really let sound in, I'd be just as well off getting a closed headphone since it will seem like I'm getting a closed headphone that has the annoying drawback of blaring whatever I'm listening for the world to hear.
So the reason I'm worrying is because it feels like I can find some sort of fault with every set I've tried so far. Is this normal? Am I being overly harsh based on what you see above? Am I ever going to be able to find something that pleases me across the board? What I've found that I like appears to be the following:
1. warm bass (I do not need more than the x2, but wouldn't want tons less)
2. treble where the bell-strikes on ride cymbals and sybillants aren't rolled off
3. treble that doesn't drill through my ears as the HP200 sometimes does (yes, I know, this is up to mastering to some extent, it's not purely the headphone's fault)
4. Either a can that doesn't let sound in or out, or a can that lets sound go both ways
5. A headphone that sits well on my head and won't fall off; so far, none of the cans I've tried are uncomfortable, btw. X2 seems to be tightest and heaviest with Soundmagic probably loosest, but as long as it sits there and doesn't flop around I'm not overly picky on this
6. A headphone that's easy to drive, or a headphone/amp/dac combo under the $500 mark that is portable; I really don't want a tube amp or a big block sat on my desk, where disconnecting and travelling with just my laptop will result in much worse sound (it's one reason I like the E10k, as it's tiny and boosts the sound nicely)
With these parameters in mind, is there anything else I should look at? As stated before, I'm willing to go closed if an open can can't give me all these things.
Of the gear I've sampled thus far, I am probably most pleased with the x2; the treble dip isn't so huge that I'd consider it a fatal flaw, and the other gripes I can live with. If I can do better though, I might try. I am probably least pleased with the DT880, owing to its lack of volume and generally thin-sounding quality.
Please help, if you can. I feel like I'm quibbling on details and I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing I can really afford to be doing given my budget and expectations and such. On the other hand, since I -am spending a fair bit of money, that's precisely why I'm experimenting and nitpicking. Heck, I don't know.

 

[Beyakusenn]

You might want to get a Sennheiser HD650. It sounds to me like the ideal headphone for you.

 

[billybob_jcv]

Well, I applaud your attention to detail and willingness to do critical listening. I also think you are making a common mistake...

You are agonizing because you are treating this purchase as if it is the last headphone you will ever buy. Long-time head-fiers know that it is NEVER the *last* headphone, it is only the *next* headphone. Every headphone has pros and cons, and the appreciation of those differences is one of the fun aspects of the head-fi hobby. It's not really a search for "perfection" - it's a journey of exploration. Some head-fiers buy a headphone, listen to it for a while, then sell or trade it so they can try something else. Others just keep adding new headphones to their inventory so that they can compare and contrast the different models, and listen to different headphones whenever the mood strikes them.

It's only money...

 

[Shaffer]

As you liked the DT880, but didn't get the bass you wanted, I'd suggest buying the same cans again, a set of DT770 pads, and a quality amplifier. I'm assuming you have a decent DAC and are playing lossless source material. Good luck.

 

[Tavilyn]

Hi again,
I'd like to clarify a couple of things here, just to make sure we're all on the same page.
1. I use MP3s at 320 quality, so they're not truly lossless but I do appreciate quality. My ear is good and I notice only small differences between these and the lossless equivelents everyone is touting. This isn't to say I'm criticizing others, only that I think I'll keep that source unless my eyes are snapped wide open in future.
2. I'm in a slightly different position than some of you. I know very well that this is both a hobby and an ongoing search, and that I'm not going to be stuck with whatever cans I choose for the rest of my life. However, I do intend to buy something I'm going to like; the whole idea of buy and swap and settle is alien to me at this point, I still find it strange. I am far less obsessed with "perfect" now than I was, say, two weeks ago, so I'm coming along. I'd still like to get something ideal though.
3. I live in Canada. Everything is going to cost more here because the U.S. dollar's value is different. My budget is 400-500 Canadian dollars, not American dollars, which will limit how much money I have to play around with. One of the previous posters said "it's only money" (or perhaps that's part of his sig, I'm not sure), but I, personally, don't have loads of it lying around. The only reason I currently have three sets of cans at my house right now is because I intend to return two of them, if not all three of them, within thirty days. I got them and kept them too compare them side by side.
Now, someone here suggests the HD650 as maybe being quite good for me.
1. Bearing in mind that the 598s had that weird treble dip that squished certain treble bits, and sounded muffled at times, are the 650s going to have the same issues?
2. One of the reasons I stayed away from the HD650s before is because it seemed like they'd only really shine if they were amped really well; given my budget, that's not going to be easy.
3. Is bass in the HD650s at least close to the x2? I had been led to believe that the x2 was fairly (but not extremely) bassy, and that the 650s were almost dead neutral, suggesting an appreciable difference.
I do appreciate the responses and feedback, guys. I do know this won't be my last pair ever, I just want to get the most out of what I have, within reason.

 

[Youth]

Contray to billy I think you are doing great with trying out different headphones - not all of us has the money or the need to get several headphones after all. But when you are passing jugdement on high impedience headphones without a prober amp you must also take that into consideration. If you simply can't stand anything about the headphone then that's fine, but some of the stuff you mention as cons can be fixed by a prober amp I belive. E10K won't do the DT880 250 ohm justice at all as an example. You must also take the source into consideration, which you seem to have done with the HP200.

 

[Tavilyn]

I do try and take the source into consideration, yes.
Example: Dream Theater's Octavarium is going to pierce on pretty much any can, barring some really treble-impeding amp or setup I haven't yet seen; the singer's voice, the way it was recorded, just grates. That said, the HP200 draws that out, while the x2 and even the HD598 don't make it so brutal to listen to. So yes, I do consider the source, but if I pointed out that the Soundmagic cans handled it badly, it's because my other cans didn't and because I've never heard cans that handle it as sloppily as that. Now either that recording is built that way and the HP200s were being honest, or (as I suspect) the HP200s are just a bit more treble-friendly.
I fully recognize, too, that some headphones are not going to pair well with my E10K, r will need more than I'm giving them to sound well; that's why I'm not saying dt880s are bad, they're just harder to drive and I probably don't have the means within my budget and other requirements (portability being one) to find something that will drive well.
As such, when I say they aren't good for me, I'm taking all those things, not just the cans, into perspective. I was strongly considering DT990s for awhile, but the question of how to drive them kept coming up since I've been told not to grab the 32-ohm variety. Maybe when I have more money or a more dedicated home setup that isn't portable I'll check out Beyers again, but for now they look to be too hard to drive portably within my budget.
Given that I like bass a bit (x2 proves it), DT880s were probably a poor choice right from day 1.

 

[Beyakusenn]

Now, someone here suggests the HD650 as maybe being quite good for me.
1. Bearing in mind that the 598s had that weird treble dip that squished certain treble bits, and sounded muffled at times, are the 650s going to have the same issues?
2. One of the reasons I stayed away from the HD650s before is because it seemed like they'd only really shine if they were amped really well; given my budget, that's not going to be easy.
3. Is bass in the HD650s at least close to the x2? I had been led to believe that the x2 was fairly (but not extremely) bassy, and that the 650s were almost dead neutral, suggesting an appreciable difference.
I do appreciate the responses and feedback, guys. I do know this won't be my last pair ever, I just want to get the most out of what I have, within reason.

1) The HD650 does have a bit of a treble dip, but not as much as the HD598. You might prefer the treble of the HD600, but that one is more neutral (less bassy).
2) Good amping certainly improves the HD650, but it doesn't sound bad at all with some of the cheaper amps (like the O2).
3) The HD650 are not neutral, it has a somewhat elevated bass. I'm not sure how it compares to the X2 though. Not only the HD650 are warm sounding, but even the more neutral HD600 have some warmth to them. The DT880 is more neutral than either of these Senns.

 

[Youth]

Allright
 
In this pricebracket I think that the HD600/650 are the only ones left for you to check out. I haven't tried them myself but I've read that they don't fair well with E10K, so the O2 or Magni might be something to look at here.

 

[billybob_jcv]

My comment of "it's only money" was, of course, partially tongue-in-cheek. My point was to attempt to shift your thinking slightly so that you would see the search for improved sound as enjoyable rather than as frustrating. The exploration can be fun, it doesn't need to be a struggle.

 

[Tavilyn]

Oh, it's great fun. If I didn't enjoy it I would go out and buy a v-shaped set of cans for a hundred bucks and stop fretting about this or that or the other thing. I'm 31, and I've listened to a lot of bad or not-great headphones over the years. Haha. I figured your comment was at least partially tongue-in-cheek, btw.
The only way it's a struggle is that frankly I've never spent this much on audio before, so I'm caught between quibbling on details and just lapping up all the new stuff I'm experiencing. I'm not unhappy; my frustration is the excited, uncertain kind rather than the unhappy, unsettled kind, if that makes any sense at all.
 
To the person who suggested and then explained the HD650, thanks for that. I am hoping I can get a semi-portable amp that would drive them and make them sound decent, mind you; that would be my only other hurdle.

 

[Tavilyn]

I'm wondering how the HD650 would compare to the HD598, particularly before factoring in an amp/dac. The 650s are expensive, double the price of the 598s where I live.
Beyond that, I'm wondering if any of you could be good enough to do me a small favour. Being totally blind, I can't really parse graphs. I assume that most headphones have them, or that someone has made them? There are two closed cans I'm semi-interested in (well three, really, but the third I'll get to at the end of my post) and I'm wondering how their sound goes. One is the Mad Dog Pro. The other is the B and W P7. As I said very early, if I can get similar bass punch to the x2, decent but not insane treble, good mids and soundstage that won't sound like it's coming out of a tin, I might just go closed.
Now, to that other set of cans. I'm sort of confused about Denon. They seem to have the AH line (600, 1000, 2000 and 5000) and they're all discontinued. First, what's the difference between each? Second, is it worth even looking into these, or are these more basshead-style cans that make everything boomy?

 

[cel4145]

So the reason I'm worrying is because it feels like I can find some sort of fault with every set I've tried so far. Is this normal?

Normal for headphones to have some flaw? Yes. Normal to be very OCD about it. Maybe not :etysmile:

Headphones are designed based on psychoacoustic models. It's not the same as speakers where they can measure the anechoic response and design for a smooth response. Go read these two articles:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurements-explained-frequency-response-part-one
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurements-explained-frequency-response-part-two

So it's a best guess as to what sounds good. Smart educated guess, but still best guess.

I've always thought, too, that it's the problem of designing with one driver to cover the whole audible frequency range. It's why speakers generally use a tweeter, midrange driver, and then a sub or at least a woofer driver for deep bass. It's why multi armature IEMs are becoming popular on high end IEMs. Easier to design well to cover the whole frequency range.

So if you are looking for an ultra smooth response, get you some good speakers, setup a listening room with some basic room treatments, get a measurement mic, and use REW with PEQ

 

[Tavilyn]

Bump?
Sorry to bring this back up, but I've still got some questions about the closed cans, and about Denon cans in particular, from a previous post, if anyone can help.
Being totally blind means that unless a review or comparison explains graphs being used, I probably won't get any use out of them. That's why I'm wondering if one or more of you would be good enough to give me an idea what to expect from some of the cans I've mentioned. I know, for instance, that the Soundmagic HP200 is slightly v-shaped (more treble than bass I believe), and I know the Fidelio X2 has a bit of a midbass and bass boost but is otherwise fairly neutral-ish. Knowing how the graphs would olook on a few of these others would give me at least some idea of what I'm looking at, since now I'm getting to a point where I'm pretty sure I know what I like.
Also also, the more I play with the 598s the more I realize that I can indeed hear cymbals and stuff on them, even the ride cymbals I said I couldn't hear well before. Either I'm getting used to them or else I had them too loud the first time; cranking them too loud means a whole pile of details go away, and the mids just rush in and smear everything. I guess that's typical enough and is one very good reason, beside a few others, not to blast your music. Haha.
I'm also aware that my E10K is not precisely top-end equipment. I'm not really sure how to compare its sound to other potential amps/dacs, mind you, and as such, I don't know what to replace it with. I don't play music on my iPhone, I just use my laptop, so whatever it is has to be fairly small, hopefully affordable, and able to drive well if I end up going for something harder to drive.
After all this is said and done, I know that there's absolutely no substitute for hearing things and judging for yourself. I'm looking for good solid starting-points that I haven't managed to disseminate from reviews and comparisons elsewhere. It might seem like I'm wanting someone to hold my hand through every agonizing little detail of the process, but I assure you that I'm not. If you feel I'm asking too much, quibbling too much, I won't be offended if you can't be bothered giving me the details I'm seeking.
In closing, I'd just like to say that the HD650s are a headphone I'm really dying to have some good time with. At their pricepoint, though, and with my amp/dac situation, it might be a pipe dream for now, unless someone here knows where I might get a cheap pair in Canada. Cheapest I'm finding is about $519 CAD on Amazon.

 

[Shaffer]

Bump?

Being totally blind means that unless a review or comparison explains graphs being used, I probably won't get any use out of them.

Folks, let's all keep this in mind.