[Kramer01]

Hd 800 = 6khz peak = hall of fame

Hd 800S = distortion on bass = hall of fame

In @Tyll Hertsens defense both these headphones are no longer on the wall of fame and they were dethroned when something better came along, they are still mentioned on the wall of fame page with reason as to why they are no longer on the wall and which HP replaced them. Even when they were on the wall of fame the shortcomings were mentioned in the review and we were informed that you should keep that characteristic of the HP in mind.

The reason they were on the hall of fame is because the 800/800S did a LOT of stuff right and had only 1 or 2 negatives.
The 800S has a teeny weeny bit more distortion in bass and Tyll said in his review that you should not read too much into it.

The reason the innerfidelity Z1R review got so much backlash was because it's opposite to every other review out there and that M50x comment didn't help. The Z1R is on the Head-Fi 's buying guide and has received +ve reviews from every other publication so the review didn't go down well.

Now it's suspected that the headphone Tyll received may have been be faulty....this makes me very nervous about investing in a TOTL headphone. First the Utopia and LCD-4 debacle now this.
Lets wait and see what Jude's findings are when he gets Tyll's review unit

 

[mysticstryk]

^^^

Too be fair, there is plenty of negative impressions out there about the Z1R. Tyll is not an outlier.

 

[Martin79]

Too be fair, there is plenty of positive impressions out there about the Z1R.

 

[svinaik]

Folks, just to share another perspective on this whole issue of measurements and pleasure..

There is an old Indian story. Many "Learned" men were sent to a mango orchard to spend an afternoon there, Since they were all very learned and educated, the whole group could not resist applying their analytical minds to figuring out the number of trees, healthy and not healthy, and counting / estimating mangoes on different trees to differentiate between the productive and not so productive trees and respective qualities of the mangoes on different trees. Soon the whole discussion went into a fierce debate. Amongst these folks, there was a "Wise" man who saw the futility of this whole drama and had the sense that since he was in a mango orchard, why not enjoy a few. He sat down and picked a few and ate until his heart was full, while the rest of the group spend the whole day discussing / arguing into evening and went home bitter and angry.

So we can all count mangoes or some of us eat some.

On a very personal level, I am very content with my Z1R that I am enjoying in combination with the TA-ZH1ES and WM-1A / ZX2 and now I do have the joy of owning the Just Ear IEM from Sony as well (Thanks Nanaholic). There may be better things out there but I am very satisfied with my lot in life.

 

[Martin79]

Truth

 

[up late]

Folks, just to share another perspective on this whole issue of measurements and pleasure..

There is an old Indian story. Many "Learned" men were sent to a mango orchard to spend an afternoon there, Since they were all very learned and educated, the whole group could not resist applying their analytical minds to figuring out the number of trees, healthy and not healthy, and counting / estimating mangoes on different trees to differentiate between the productive and not so productive trees and respective qualities of the mangoes on different trees. Soon the whole discussion went into a fierce debate. Amongst these folks, there was a "Wise" man who saw the futility of this whole drama and had the sense that since he was in a mango orchard, why not enjoy a few. He sat down and picked a few and ate until his heart was full, while the rest of the group spend the whole day discussing / arguing into evening and went home bitter and angry.

So we can all count mangoes or some of us eat some.

On a very personal level, I am very content with my Z1R that I am enjoying in combination with the TA-ZH1ES and WM-1A / ZX2 and now I do have the joy of owning the Just Ear IEM from Sony as well (Thanks Nanaholic). There may be better things out there but I am very satisfied with my lot in life.

why can't we do both?

 

[greggf]

I'm reading YOU MAY ALSO LIKE: TASTE IN AN AGE OF ENDLESS CHOICE by Tom Vanderbilt (Knopf 2016).

On page 208, about beer tasting/testing: "We start out trying to be very objective, judging to these parameters of the style of criteria . . . but you have to be a little subjective, otherwise a machine could do this." "A beer might hit all of the style guidelines, but was it actually a good beer?"

Page 207, talking about the philosopher Kant and his CRITIQUE OF JUDGMENT: ". . . the very fact that they had put criteria [think 'the ideal frequency response for a headphone'] on the things they were judging, for Kant, rendered their judgments suspect."

And on page 142, quoting another philosopher, Hume: ". . . we seek in vain for a standard . . . few are qualified to give judgment on any work of art, or establish their own sentiment as the standard of beauty."

I think we are right now witnessing people seeking IN VAIN for a "standard" of headphone excellence.

There is none, except for your ears and mine.

The internet is degrading the role of formal reviewers of any product, and reviewers are going the way of the newspapers and print magazines in which they and other critics of cultural and material products once labored.

Their last gasp for credibility? Expensive measuring "machines" which the masses do not possess and which purport to "prove" things.

But . . . we don't need them. We have ears. And taste.

 

[Whitigir]

I'm reading YOU MAY ALSO LIKE: TASTE IN AN AGE OF ENDLESS CHOICE by Tom Vanderbilt (Knopf 2016).

On page 208, about beer tasting/testing: "We start out trying to be very objective, judging to these parameters of the style of criteria . . . but you have to be a little subjective, otherwise a machine could do this." "A beer might hit all of the style guidelines, but was it actually a good beer?"

Page 207, talking about the philosopher Kant and his CRITIQUE OF JUDGMENT: ". . . the very fact that they had put criteria [think 'the ideal frequency response for a headphone'] on the things they were judging, for Kant, rendered their judgments suspect."

And on page 142, quoting another philosopher, Hume: ". . . we seek in vain for a standard . . . few are qualified to give judgment on any work of art, or establish their own sentiment as the standard of beauty."

I think we are right now witnessing people seeking IN VAIN for a "standard" of headphone excellence.

There is none, except for your ears and mine.

The internet is degrading the role of formal reviewers of any product, and reviewers are going the way of the newspapers and print magazines in which they and other critics of cultural and material products once labored.

Their last gasp for credibility? Expensive measuring "machines" which the masses do not possess and which purport to "prove" things.

But . . . we don't need them. We have ears. And taste.

Exactly, no one can say this any better. However, a lot of people just follow the leader and believe that they are using one TOTL headphones that happened to be on the WOF !!!

A: Dude ! Why the 4K Headphones man ? Such a waste ?

B: Because it sounds good according to Tyll, a person who has all the understanding about headphones and surpass engineers/researches done at the manufacturers. I can show you a 4K Headphones that just can not sell because he say it is bad, and another 4K headphone that sell like hot cake because he put it on the WOF and say "it is the best".

B: Not every expensive headphones sound good, you know ? It happens to these 4K Headphones too. It turned out that both units were possibly defective, and the market turn around....you know ? The one selling is dropping in prices and the one not selling is gaining the speed.

A: Damn man, you know so much about Headphones. I can do with just EarPods man, and expensive enough........(thinking to himself, How could a defective pair of headphones be THE BEST and selling so fast)

B: (ooohhh so proud, thinking to himself)....Yeah man, I love my music, and I know who is to trust with my money.......turning on his 50 cents. BTW, I would never touched Z1R, he said it couldn't be compared to a pair of $250....Sony is trash

End of a short story


So my point is that, just use your ears, and own genres of interests. You have to judge the equipments for yourself. Music is an art that you use your ears and not eyes to understand and enjoy, and everyone seeing arts in a different way. There maybe common interests, but you need to find it, and understand yourself. Moreover, it would be an insult to prejudice a piece of arts upon others opinions without witnessing it, yourself.

No offenses to anyone. I still respect Tyll, but I enjoy my music with my ears , and more than ever, I respect the engineers and researchers behind every high-end products. If it is negative to me, it is just not for me, and if it is positive to me then YAYY! Nothing is perfect, just be glad that the products were made and so I can sit on my a$$ to judge it, and criticize, or enjoying it

 

[up late]

I'm reading YOU MAY ALSO LIKE: TASTE IN AN AGE OF ENDLESS CHOICE by Tom Vanderbilt (Knopf 2016).

On page 208, about beer tasting/testing: "We start out trying to be very objective, judging to these parameters of the style of criteria . . . but you have to be a little subjective, otherwise a machine could do this." "A beer might hit all of the style guidelines, but was it actually a good beer?"

Page 207, talking about the philosopher Kant and his CRITIQUE OF JUDGMENT: ". . . the very fact that they had put criteria [think 'the ideal frequency response for a headphone'] on the things they were judging, for Kant, rendered their judgments suspect."

And on page 142, quoting another philosopher, Hume: ". . . we seek in vain for a standard . . . few are qualified to give judgment on any work of art, or establish their own sentiment as the standard of beauty."

I think we are right now witnessing people seeking IN VAIN for a "standard" of headphone excellence.

There is none, except for your ears and mine.

The internet is degrading the role of formal reviewers of any product, and reviewers are going the way of the newspapers and print magazines in which they and other critics of cultural and material products once labored.

Their last gasp for credibility? Expensive measuring "machines" which the masses do not possess and which purport to "prove" things.

But . . . we don't need them. We have ears. And taste.

i don't regard this hobby in that way at all, but i've never been partial to false dichotomies

 

[Beagle]

I'm reading YOU MAY ALSO LIKE: TASTE IN AN AGE OF ENDLESS CHOICE by Tom Vanderbilt (Knopf 2016).

On page 208, about beer tasting/testing: "We start out trying to be very objective, judging to these parameters of the style of criteria . . . but you have to be a little subjective, otherwise a machine could do this." "A beer might hit all of the style guidelines, but was it actually a good beer?"

Page 207, talking about the philosopher Kant and his CRITIQUE OF JUDGMENT: ". . . the very fact that they had put criteria [think 'the ideal frequency response for a headphone'] on the things they were judging, for Kant, rendered their judgments suspect."

And on page 142, quoting another philosopher, Hume: ". . . we seek in vain for a standard . . . few are qualified to give judgment on any work of art, or establish their own sentiment as the standard of beauty."

I think we are right now witnessing people seeking IN VAIN for a "standard" of headphone excellence.

There is none, except for your ears and mine.

The internet is degrading the role of formal reviewers of any product, and reviewers are going the way of the newspapers and print magazines in which they and other critics of cultural and material products once labored.

Their last gasp for credibility? Expensive measuring "machines" which the masses do not possess and which purport to "prove" things.

But . . . we don't need them. We have ears. And taste.

Excellent posting. Yes, with the internet, everybody is an expert and a "reviewer". And yes, too many people falsely rely on measuring and the technical aspects of listening in order to determine "what's good", rather than JUST LISTENING.

I think it was Martin Mull who once quipped "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" . Well you can substitute "headphones" for "music".

 

[Sonic Defender]

I was so lucky to recently have been loaned four fantastic headphones to test and enjoy. I ended up getting enough time with the LCD X, MPH 1000, Ether, and the Focal Listen. These headphones were all very nice and I in particular did enjoy the LCD X. I would say that even the X felt a little more extended in the treble than the Z1R. When my Z1R was returned and I plugged it in, at first, and I mean for maybe 5 seconds by way of comparison the Z1R seemed restrained; however within a few short minutes my brain was dialed back into the Z1R and I was once again very content with it. So easy to listen to anything with the Sony. There is this one Dead Can Dance song from the album Spirit Chaser that I really love on speakers and headphones. Not far into the song over top of the slowly reverberating deep bass tones what sounds like a rattle movies would tell us an indigenous Shaman would use in a ceremony comes in. As that section develops the new remastered version of the album has over etched the rattle and it can be a little grating at times. On the Ether, MPH1000, and to a lesser extent the on the LCD X the rattle did indeed get slightly hard and over-emphasized. So that was one of the first things I tested with the Z1R and it portrayed the rattle element without hardness.

Notice I said portrayed and not reproduced. That in my mind is important to distinguish here. I said it before and I will say it again, the Z1R was not intended to perfectly reproduce the music, rather it portrays it. Sony decided they wanted to have a signature that was clearly not analytical, ruler flat, neutral, whatever way you chose to describe a headphone intended to be as close to accurate as possible. That was never the intent behind the Z1R. Yes the Z1R will give up some inner clarity and some of the finer edge textures around notes. There were design compromises, nobody will ever deny that. What the Z1R does give you in compensation is an eminently musical headphone that can saturate the music with a sense of warmth that is not the death of detail, and in fact, I think it offers a new way to experience detail through a richness and ease of presentation. It won't be for everybody, and in fact I suspect that the older the listener, the less they may like it as the overall balance of the sound does skew toward the lower frequencies. As we age our hearing acuity for treble starts to fall off so I would not be surprised that an older ear may actually find too much warmth in the Z1R. I will go out on a limb and say that while Sony would be delighted if everybody liked the tuning of the Z1R, I have a feeling the signature is deliberately contemporary and the main target audience would be younger professionals with expendable income. If that is the case, and I realize I'm rampantly speculating so no need to point that out to me, the younger ears will struggle a lot less with the tonal balance and in fact, given what I feel is a slow and steady progression away from neutral headphones, younger audiophiles may dig the Z1R immensely.

My treble acuity is still quite good, but I can see myself 5 years down the road having issues and preferring a tonal balance where the bass is less emphasized. I love the atmospheric quality to the Z1R and as a deliberately coloured/tuned headphone it offers the user a portrayal of the music that still in my mind has a respectful if not skewed tonal balance. Imperfect, you bet, but I really like the signature warts and all.

 

[Marc Lian]

The one discredit here is to mockingly disparage a $2300 pair of headphones and provocatively call it no better than a $120 unit. How credible is that? And yes, I welcome all measurements. Not just Tyll's.

There is nothing wrong with that sentiment. Diminishing returns, apply to headphones too. Have a read - http://asa.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1121/1.4984044

 

[up late]

Excellent posting. Yes, with the internet, everybody is an expert and a "reviewer". And yes, too many people falsely rely on measuring and the technical aspects of listening in order to determine "what's good", rather than JUST LISTENING.

I think it was Martin Mull who once quipped "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" . Well you can substitute "headphones" for "music".

i don't think that's true to say of everyone but i do enjoy a good quip

 

[Beagle]

i think there is a problem when z1r owners attack and attempt to discredit a reviewer for writing a critical review about it. if tyll were to allow considerations such as the affect that his reviews might have on the prospective sales of a headphone to influence what he writes, then his credibility as a reviewer would be compromised and that would be doing consumers a disservice imo.

and to favour a set of headphone measurements because they differ from tyll's and look more flattering of the z1r is misguided. objective measurements should be used to take the subjective bias out of the argument rather than misused to support it.

How would it be doing consumers a disservice? Do people actually make choices based solely on someone else's opinion of that product?

 

[nordkapp]

Tube amplifiers do not measure well. Period. Get the point? I prefer my Z1Rs all day long over my Elears for certain music (EDM and similar), regardless of measurements and "expert opinion". My 2 cents......