[EDN80]

^^^This. Which is why assuming anything is not productive at this point. Just follow the story as it develops and read what's writ, not what your mind wanders to. Sounds like Jude and I will be following the trail of what's there to be seen. Just follow along with an open mind. If you like you're Z1Rs then by all means, listen to some enjoyable tunes as you read. This will take a minute...as the kids say these days. Don't try to push the river.

The problem is not Z1R owners. I, like many others who already own them, love them. The problem is the consumer and the prospective buyer. What are they left to assume when they are told in no uncertain terms by no less an authority than yourself than the $2300 pair of headphones they're interested in compares less than favorably with a pair of $130 hp like the ATH-M50X? I've always wondered, when you write your reviews, if you cared at all what repercussions they had on the market, whether it pertains to Focal, to Sony, Pioneer, or AKG.

Needless to say, your reviews sparked quite a few interesting comments for decidedly polarizing headphones-- HD800, AKG K812, Pioneer SE-MASTER 1.... among others, and now, these.

@jude 's measurements are quite welcome actually, as they seem to contradict your own-- something which had been sorely lacking for some of the headphones above. Will keep reading this thread. Looking forward to developments and methodology discussions...

 

[Sp12er3]

Though I would have preferred that Jude went to you first for a collaboration, and then shared what the two of you found!

For me, I don't particularly mind them doing it this way, IMO this become a good prelude for their upcoming video about their measuring system and the topic surrounding it (equipment, system & test variances, etc), in fact now it starts up a good debate in the community and are giving more knowledge for possible future case.
Also hey, it drives traffic for both site, so win win, no?

Now If only people don't take what others said in online forum too personally, It's not like there's some big fight coming or anything.... Just people trying to find out what's up.
Still quite an entertaining read though

 

[canali]

Thanks for the link--I just read it. If the headphone's not an outlier, then I do think you're right about #1 (quoted below) being the likely reason.






Yes, we always test in multiple positions. For the DF-compensated plots, we're using KEMAR DF (I'll send you the values). Here are five positions, no DF compensation applied, frequency response and total harmonic distortion (click for larger size):





That would be groovy. Email response forthcoming.



Thank you, Tyll. The big website switch delayed our projects related to such, but we're getting there.

---

Our audio measurements in this post were made using:

• G.R.A.S. 45BB-12 KEMAR with anthropometric pinnae for low-noise earphone and headphone testing
• Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer
• Audio Precision APx1701 Transducer Test Interface
• Herzan custom acoustic enclosure

now THIS is what I would like to see more of:
two seasoned reviewers (Ty and Jude), who, despite having differences in their findings,
nonetheless are still trying to understand what accounts for the diffs and variables
using advanced technology, 'the scientific method' approach,
an open mind and good communication.

a win win for us all.

kudos gentlemen!

 

[Treeko]

What does one being longer in the game mean? It is very possible that somebody can still be as good or for arguments sake better despite being newer at something. Think of sport analogies with young players being better at the same point in their career than the previous generation of stars. I'm not saying this is at all the case, but simply assuming experience always makes one better is while intuitively attractive, I doubt it is always the case.

I don't know if you are familiar with tyll's work or goals but for a VERY long time he has been the forefront of trying to bring us consumers objective measurements to quantify our headphone purchases. Through his studies on headphones he has essentially allowed us to peek further into and explore objectively headphone sound as well as providing his own subjective views on the matter. No other person (that I know of) has put more effort into explaining what frequency response, 30 and 300hz Square wave graphs, impulse response and etc has to do with what we hear, holding a large database of known measurements to compare and contrast as well as a study into a target consumer sounds that appeals to the average consumer. He has a whole hour video lecture on the series that is beyond interesting and i wish it could go on for longer you should really take a look:



His measurements are not simply just hooking up headphones to a fancy rig and producing graphs, please appreciate the man's sheer effort into this industry.

And lastly just because he states his opinion does not suddenly make your equipment suddenly trash or his views inherently wrong.

 

[Makiah S]

I don't know if you are familiar with tyll's work or goals but for a VERY long time he has been the forefront of trying to bring us consumers objective measurements to quantify our headphone purchases. Through his studies on headphones he has essentially allowed us to peek further into what we call around as well as providing his own subjective views on the matter. No other person (that I know of) has put more effort into explained what frequency response, 30 and 300hz Square wave graphs, impulse response and etc has to do with what we hear, holding a large database of known measurements to compare and contrast as well as a study into a target consumer sounds that appeals to the average consumer. He has a whole hour video lecture on the series that is beyond interesting and i wish it could go on for longer you should really take a look:



His measurements are not simply just hooking up headphones to a fancy rig and producing graphs, please appreciate the man's sheer effort into this industry.

And lastly just because he states his opinion does not suddenly make your equipment suddenly trash or his views inherently wrong.

Great link! I actually read through his written articles my self, https://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-measurements-explained, there's a shorter 2 page one too that I love as well

 

[Sonic Defender]

I don't know if you are familiar with tyll's work or goals but for a VERY long time he has been the forefront of trying to bring us consumers objective measurements to quantify our headphone purchases. Through his studies on headphones he has essentially allowed us to peek further into what we call around as well as providing his own subjective views on the matter. No other person (that I know of) has put more effort into explained what frequency response, 30 and 300hz Square wave graphs, impulse response and etc has to do with what we hear, holding a large database of known measurements to compare and contrast as well as a study into a target consumer sounds that appeals to the average consumer. He has a whole hour video lecture on the series that is beyond interesting and i wish it could go on for longer you should really take a look:



His measurements are not simply just hooking up headphones to a fancy rig and producing graphs, please appreciate the man's sheer effort into this industry.

And lastly just because he states his opinion does not suddenly make your equipment suddenly trash or his views inherently wrong.

I have no idea where you are getting me discounting Tyll's skills and contributions from. I think my point was very clear and I stand by it. This isn't about Tyll versus Jude or anything juvenile like that, it is simply about the inherent danger in making assumptions or overly valuing one characteristic (in this case experience). I am very aware of Tyll's history and contributions, and as everybody who cares about this hobby, I am beyond grateful, always have been, and always will be. I frequently visit Innerfidelity and enjoy my time there and I have learned a great deal from Tyll's efforts. Not sure why you think otherwise?

 

[Treeko]

@Sonic Defender before this gets a bit long in the tooth I value your input about the inherent dangers of overly valuing experience and take it on board. I use a multitude of different views and reviews not only tyll's as a gauge of whether I will be interested in a headphone initially so thanks for the heads up. When it comes to the final purchase, as I hope we are all doing, I rely on my ears and my ears alone. No two ear canals /sonic preferences are made equal that's why you should not feel bad if someone disagrees with your opinion.
I think this has been said before as well but measurements do not tell the whole story.

@Mshenay I have read through all of them before and really enjoyed the findings. If you find any other interesting articles elsewhere do not hesitate to pm them over to me mate

 

[Marc Lian]

Why hasn't Jude provided the raw measurements? Especially now that Tyll has requested for it too.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Though I would have preferred that Jude went to you first for a collaboration, and then shared what the two of you found! That would have been really awesome!

Nah, he has his soap box and I have mine. I have no problem with him posting his findings at all. Heck, it makes for a good story, out in the open for all to follow along.

 

[jude]

Why hasn't Jude provided the raw measurements? Especially now that Tyll has requested for it too.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...e-from-ifa-2016.818846/page-699#post-13549237

 

[up late]

Jude, where are you physically? Detroit? Sea level, essentially? And Tyll is Montana? Whoa.

Does anybody here know if elevation/air pressure affects audio measurements? It affects car performance, it affects baseball players, and it sure makes me gassed when I hit the Rockies.

I assume higher elevations would result in exaggerated results/graphs. AND . . . I assume that, subjectively, all traits of a headphone, both good and bad, would be to the extreme at higher elevations.

And finally, I assume that most headphones, including Sonys, are designed and tested at closer to sea level elevations.

i doubt that your assumptions have been tested with regard to headphones but go knock yourself out

Even if true is does not explain the other half Dozen measurements with the same peaks

good point

 

[up late]

What does one being longer in the game mean? It is very possible that somebody can still be as good or for arguments sake better despite being newer at something. Think of sport analogies with young players being better at the same point in their career than the previous generation of stars. I'm not saying this is at all the case, but simply assuming experience always makes one better is while intuitively attractive, I doubt it is always the case.

I think experience and the acquired knowledge that it brings counts for something, as does competency and expertise

 

[spwath]

The problem is not Z1R owners. I, like many others who already own them, love them. The problem is the consumer and the prospective buyer. What are they left to assume when they are told in no uncertain terms by no less an authority than yourself than the $2300 pair of headphones they're interested in compares less than favorably with a pair of $130 hp like the ATH-M50X? I've always wondered, when you write your reviews, if you cared at all what repercussions they had on the market, whether it pertains to Focal, to Sony, Pioneer, or AKG.

Needless to say, your reviews sparked quite a few interesting comments for decidedly polarizing headphones-- HD800, AKG K812, Pioneer SE-MASTER 1.... among others, and now, these.

@jude 's measurements are quite welcome actually, as they seem to contradict your own-- something which had been sorely lacking for some of the headphones above. Will keep reading this thread. Looking forward to developments and methodology discussions...

he shouldn't care what repercussion their are. That would be stupid. Make reviews dishonest.

 

[canali]

Nah, he has his soap box and I have mine. I have no problem with him posting his findings at all. Heck, it makes for a good story, out in the open for all to follow along.

nice to see you on here, Ty...you're more often seen posting
on 'the other site', but we don't see you here near enough.
please show up more often...your presence is welcomed.

 

[up late]

The problem is not Z1R owners. I, like many others who already own them, love them. The problem is the consumer and the prospective buyer. What are they left to assume when they are told in no uncertain terms by no less an authority than yourself than the $2300 pair of headphones they're interested in compares less than favorably with a pair of $130 hp like the ATH-M50X? I've always wondered, when you write your reviews, if you cared at all what repercussions they had on the market, whether it pertains to Focal, to Sony, Pioneer, or AKG.

Needless to say, your reviews sparked quite a few interesting comments for decidedly polarizing headphones-- HD800, AKG K812, Pioneer SE-MASTER 1.... among others, and now, these.

@jude 's measurements are quite welcome actually, as they seem to contradict your own-- something which had been sorely lacking for some of the headphones above. Will keep reading this thread. Looking forward to developments and methodology discussions...

i think there is a problem when z1r owners attack and attempt to discredit a reviewer for writing a critical review about it. if tyll were to allow considerations such as the affect that his reviews might have on the prospective sales of a headphone to influence what he writes, then his credibility as a reviewer would be compromised and that would be doing consumers a disservice imo.

and to favour a set of headphone measurements because they differ from tyll's and look more flattering of the z1r is misguided. objective measurements should be used to take the subjective bias out of the argument rather than misused to support it.