[taxiq]

I seriously believe there needs to be some type of standardized protocol where a headphone being reviewed is tested to be within certain standard deviation to the "average" or "typical" unit in production. This needs to be tested and stated at the beginning of the review to be a legitimate one. Now that I think of it, isn't this sort of common sense?

Come on! Just after the LCD4 vs Utopia debacle, another one?? We are better than this. How am I to ever trust any review, I wonder... (no offense and nothing personal)

The theory of statistical significance requires a sample size with substantial a number of units for there to be statistical significances. My recollection is 15 units in the sample are needed for 90% confidence the results are reasonably representative of universal population, i.e. the production run. Obviously this degree of rigor is never met by reviewers who are basing their findings on a single units.

We live in an imperfect world and are making due with what we have, flawed as it is.

 

[jude]

Tyll's aren't the only pair that measure that way. Not cool imho for Jude to presume that Tyll's setup must be wrong just because it differs from his (Jude's) results...

I'll guess you didn't actually read my posts, so I'll quote myself to save you the trouble:

...What's our conclusion? Right now, we'll assume that perhaps Tyll has an outlier Sony MDR-Z1R. n=3 across two different measurement setups isn't enough to come to a conclusion...

I absolutely agree with @Maelob's post. Tyll's unit might be an outlier, and I'd appreciate the opportunity to measure it.

From my posts, I think it's clear my focus right now is the headphone. X009 is probably one of the earliest near-production (but still pre-production) MDR-Z1R's to make it to these shores. X323 is a production unit that was sent to us by its owner. I think it fair to call the measurements of these two units comparable and similar based on our results here.

Of course, we'll measure others as they arrive, and we're expecting at least one more production unit. (I suspect we may now receive others from others.)

All I've said about Tyll's measurement setup in this thread is this:

Perhaps Tyll will chime in, but I'll assume that his analyzer and microphones are kept calibrated...

Again, my focus has been the headphone.

...Are Sony a sponsor of this forum?

Sony is not a sponsor of this forum.

 

[TSAVJason]

Sony does monitor comments here on their products.

 

[canali]

EEEEnough is enough. Constantly talking about a review really says a lot on the subject.

Disagree here, if we were just trading subjective listening opinions then yeah, I'd say we would have enough. But now we have new hard objective data to discuss and compare, the discussion most certainly needs to continue and broken down to find where the difference comes from.

i think this discussion is much warranted...so much for 'objective analysis' of a FR....i think this discussion can clarify protocols and methods in a number of ways.

 

[jmills8]

i think this discussion is much warranted...so much for 'objective analysis' of a FR....i think this discussion can clarify protocols and methods in a number of ways.

 

[spwath]

my measurements match tyll's

 

[rnros]

You are ignoring the fact that measurement error is by far and away the most likely error. How many people on this planet do you think have a measuring system as calibrated as the one Jude has? With all due respect some of these others measurements are done by people who have made their own rigs and you can bet that once professional calibrators from the equipment vendors stepped in they would be able to improve those systems. It is very difficult to measure with precision and accuracy. People need to stop suggesting there is unit to unit difference with only the very, very weakest of evidence to support that claim, in fact, it really isn't evidence at all.

In all fairness to Sony and the other players involved, statements should reflect that more information is required.
Take the lead from Jude's thorough and measured response (pun intended).

To Shakespeare's delight, humans are quick to conclusion and slow to diligence.

 

[rnros]

Thanks Jude. Much needed clarity and detail on this particular product and the testing process. Looking forward to the future installments.

QA/QC: Absolutely, especially at the top tier level, the consumer should be able to rely on the manufacturer for consistency.
This would be enhanced by certification of post-assembly testing. It's not a guarantee of QC but it is a starting point.
IIRC, Sennheiser and Etymotic did this at the time that HD600 and ER4S were TOTL (early to mid 2000's).

Equally, the manufacturer should also be able to rely on the reviewer for competence and consistency in review measurements.

Objective measurements exist to quantify subjective experience, if the data is not reproducible then it fails the description of being objective.

This discussion, and all the ongoing efforts to advance the objective measurement process, can only lead to advances in the products and markets for both the consumer and the manufacturers.

 

[canali]

has anyone ever considered sending in their sony to sonarworks for calibration?
....or has anyone ever used their service for other headphones?
https://www.sonarworks.com/headphones

i know you can either send in your cans to get professionally calibrated @ $99 Euros plus $60euros return shipping
or you can also buy their calibration software.

 

[rnros]

Sony does monitor comments here in their products.

Good to know. No doubt Sony is committed to the success of the Z1R given the investment made to realize this product.
However, the process for validating and addressing concerns and complaints also needs to be clear.
When the dust settles we should have a better process for both measurement and accountability.

 

[TSAVJason]

My bet is the main reason why Sony is not an advertised sponsor here is to not be perceived as paying to get reviews. Plus most manufactures are likely not to engage when there is so much knee jerk commentary of immediate angst. When extremist angst comes to a thread most any company would be in pause mode before if at all any comments are made. The last thing they would want is to get into an argument with a consumer.

 

[up late]

The measurements here do not look like the ones on IF in the treble region. Assuming 1kHz is the baseline, the IF spike goes up about +7dB and this one


They are not the same actually. If we level set at 1kHz for both measurements as a baseline, the IF measurements at 10kHz reveal a spike at +7dB while the ones here are roughly -3dB (that's a full 10dB)...quite a big difference indeed! This graph actually more closely aligns to Jude's measurements.

FWIW, I did a frequency sweep at home last night with my pair and both an SPL meter and my ears and there was nothing in the 8-10kHz-ish range that was off pudding. My own experiences with 4-5 different Z1Rs at RMAF (with roughly 15 minutes per session) and my pair have all been very much in-line with Jude's measurements. Really weird? As Jude mentioned, it would be great if he could measure Tyll's Z1R to see if his measurements correlate. Then if they do correlate, then it would be great to understand the history of that headphone.

i wasn't suggesting that they were the same. i was referring to where the spikes occurred in the treble region of @thatonenoob's fr measurements rather than the magnitude of them. as i said in my exchange of posts with him "clarityfidelity's fr graph also shows treble peaks at 3khz and 10khz. that site's measurements most closely align with tyll's at a glance." the treble peaks appear in four sets of measurements from different sources, which include a source that you favour over innerfidelity. I also said in my exchange of posts with @thatonenoob that "variations in headphone measurements from different sources employing different measurement methodologies are to be expected, which is why comparing them isn't recommended. we should regard headphone measurements as indicative rather than absolute. that said, the ringing appearing at the same two frequencies in [four] different sets of measurements is notable."

 

[TSAVJason]

For the measurements to be consistent the test equipment, environments and methods must be consistent. Without this you're just chasing a rabbit down a hole you'll never get out of.

 

[sarinfuhrer]

my measurements match tyll's

Cool. Its cooler if you could brief the sound character based on that.
How about the sound of headphones with FR as below?

 

[thatonenoob]

my measurements match tyll's

Maybe I'm missing something... doesn't seem like it? Except for the location of the peaks.