[thatonenoob]

Or should I say "quantify".  Anyways the numbers are there!

 

[beowulf]

Not my photos, but a friend took them and I thought they look pretty neat...
 

 

 

 

 

 

[thatonenoob]

  Not my photos, but a friend took them and I thought they look pretty neat...
 

 

 
 

Very nice!  Great lookin' headphone.

 

[beowulf]

  Very nice!  Great lookin' headphone.

 
Forgot one of the ones he took... also liked it...
 

 
And because non-pros' blurry shots deserve some love too, here's one I just took myself. Hmph, he always frames them really well, I need to practice.
 

 

[Sonic Defender]

  It is very telling!  I can now understand what is meant in the "softness" of the bass or when people say the bass sounds slow on Z1R! 

Okay, I'm not purely a measurements guy, but I can't pretend that sounds like a good thing. Can I ask you have you by chance also had a chance to listen to and measure the newer LCD XC? I suspect you haven't. The notion of slow bass does concern me as I listen to quite a bit of music where this would potentially make things sound congested. I know you don't want to say too much, but you can't be an FBI Comey and now just release a tiny bit of information as these tidbits you released are actually damaging to the Z1R (in my opinion). So, do the measurements line up with what you hear?
 
I'll admit it, as much as I love what I see and what I have heard, I do believe measurements are also important and at this price point I would sacrifice looks for bass that isn't slow or wooly. Please if you can, shed a bit more light on things mate. Thanks. 
 
Edit: sorry if I seemed like I was being critical of you, that wasn't my intent if it did come off like that. I realize you were simply trying to add to the thread as you have been doing all along.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Nobody going to post a response? That is odd. I know that measurements aren't the be all and end all, but we can't pretend they have no relationship at all either. As well, I'm still on board, but questioning a little again. I typically wouldn't just react to one persons measurements as I realize I don't know anything about the measuring equipment used, the skill of the operator and such things. However, this is not the first time that the notion of slow, and wooly bass has been raised, and now with at least some measurements seeming to reveal evidence of this it is worth discussing and clarifying. This after all, isn't a $300 headphone, so I don't think it is a witch hunt, or fault finding mission when people researching this headphone want more detail about this.
 
Beowulf, I found the 800S to have nice fast bass, and obviously it sounded quite clean so do you feel the idea that the Z1R may sound slower or wooly in comparison matches your experience?

 

[Soundsgoodtome]

Don't forget to ask what amp... or do these measurement equipment have a built in amplification?

 

[Sonic Defender]

Don't forget to ask what amp... or do these measurement equipment have a built in amplification?

I'm not sue how much of a difference an amp would make here, unless it was technically flawed or extremely coloured, but yes, the whole testing apparatus is good to know about.

 

[Whitigir]

In my opinion, the Z1R bass is neither slow nor soft. It is tight, but not "super-tight", the strong lower bass and sub-bass presentations together with very well controlled mid bass do gives an impression that the bass appear to be soft, and slow. From times to times my receptions would take the bass as being slow. However, my brain is telling me that it is not. The mid bass is very fast, tight, soft bass happen at the lower bass and lower bass lines. Sub bass is rumbling and is strongly audible and or in case when it gets to sub-harmonic where I could no longer hear the audible part, I would feel it pressures and air moving. I am not lying.

The bass in Z1R is clearly separated into different sections, and if you are taking the bass as a whole being, it would appear softer and slower in comparison to Fostex 900 or SA5000. However, when you clearly paying attentions into each notes, plays, specific regions of the bass, they are clearly well controlled, detailed, strong bass, tight enough, and speedy enough to not deem as "slow or wooly" at all

If anyone take Z1R bass as slow and soft, the Z7 stock is 2x worse, period. When I modified Z7, the bass in Z7 still can not be divided into separate regions as clean as the Z1R, it can not achieve this micro Scorpio details and energy into the edges, lines, extensions and texture as well as Z1R.

I also want to add that the mid spectrum on Z1R is magical, it is so detailed and smooth to carry out the musicality and details, and together with this special bass presentations and microscopic details from sub bass to upper mid and lower trebles. They come together to create the huge and super spherical , holographical soundstage.....trebles is metallic enough, but not harsh and offensive

 

[The Life]

If the bass in a track is soft and/or slow, it sounds thusly in the Z1R. If the bass in a track is fast and/or hard, it will sound thusly in the Z1R. It doesn't bloat everything like most "consumer" HPs do and it doesn't wimpify everything like most "audiophile" HPs do.

 

[Whitigir]

If the bass in a track is soft and/or slow, it sounds thusly in the Z1R. If the bass in a track is fast and/or hard, it will sound thusly in the Z1R. It doesn't bloat everything like most "consumer" HPs do and it doesn't wimpify everything like most "audiophile" HPs do.

That is the best way to put it. Simple and easy to understand

 

[beowulf]

   
Beowulf, I found the 800S to have nice fast bass, and obviously it sounded quite clean so do you feel the idea that the Z1R may sound slower or wooly in comparison matches your experience?

 
On the Z1R the mid-range and bass have more warmth, but not to the point of fighting for attention. Z1R usually sound punchier and more enjoyable, without being cluttered on the low end. That gives a rhythm to most tracks that I didn't fully experience with the 800S. It's more melodic, but perhaps in a few tracks that already have a lot of free play in the low mid-range it can all accentuate the lower end, giving it a feeling of slower bass dragging along.
I think the Z1R are quite versatile overall (much more than the 800S), but certainly not 100/100 at every single type of music (which no headphone is)
 
I don't usually listen to electronic but am listening to Yello's "Limbo' right now and this is a track that can sound fatiguing with bad bassy headphones, but the beat sounds just perfect, fast, punchy, with the gritty vocals totally unaffected on the lower mids or the tight bass. This is actually a great Z1R track now that I think of it, since besides that it it makes very easy to notice how balanced they sound even at very low volumes.
 
Curious to see the charts, but except in extreme cases I don't always map what I see to what my ears/brain pair seem to process.
 
EDIT: Just saw this reply by Whitgir that better transmitted what I was trying to write about.
 

The bass in Z1R is clearly separated into different sections, and if you are taking the bass as a whole being, it would appear softer and slower in comparison to Fostex 900 or SA5000. However, when you clearly paying attentions into each notes, plays, specific regions of the bass, they are clearly well controlled, detailed, strong bass, tight enough, and speedy enough to not deem as "slow or wooly" at all

I also want to add that the mid spectrum on Z1R is magical, it is so detailed and smooth to carry out the musicality and details, and together with this special bass presentations and microscopic details from sub bass to upper mid and lower trebles. They come together to create the huge and super spherical , holographical soundstage.....trebles is metallic enough, but not harsh and offensive

 
No tool serves perfectly in every purpose. Found a few tracks that do not shine on these, but they are not many.
I still recall exactly the first I hit, it was Rhiannon, a live version on some Feetwood Mac album, with a bass guitar becoming a bit too overwhelming and perhaps you'd call it wooly with some lower mids swished in there. Strangely the studio version is fine, so I suspect it also had to do with the particular way that track was mastered.

 

[Whitigir]

On the Z1R the mid-range and bass have more warmth, but not to the point of fighting for attention. Z1R usually sound punchier and more enjoyable, without being cluttered on the low end. That gives a rhythm to most tracks that I didn't fully experience with the 800S. It's more melodic, but perhaps in a few tracks that already have a lot of free play in the low mid-range it can all accentuate the lower end, giving it a feeling of slower bass dragging along.
I think the Z1R are quite versatile overall (much more than the 800S), but certainly not 100/100 at every single type of music (which no headphone is)

I don't usually listen to electronic but am listening to Yello's "Limbo' right now and this is a track that can sound fatiguing with bad bassy headphones, but the beat sounds just perfect, fast, punchy, with the gritty vocals totally unaffected on the lower mids or the tight bass. This is actually a great Z1R track now that I think of it, since besides that it it makes very easy to notice how balanced they sound even at very low volumes.

Curious to see the charts, but except in extreme cases I don't always map what I see to what my ears/brain pair seems to process.

These charts and measurements are into 100-1khz increments....there is no way in hell that our hearing would be that slow....because if it is, then we would not be hearing a lot of things around us....lol. These charts to me are only to confirm the sound signature of a headphones.

Seeing a couple charts already, it do confirm that Z1R is bass strong with powerful sub bass as I heard, magical mids and great trebles without assulting the ears. I don't think these graph can tell you exactly how the drivers will be responding correlate to speed.

At least, my observations is that Z1R bass is accurately presenting in speed. It is not too fast or too slow. Believe it or not, in my opinions, TH900 may be the king of bass, but in compare to Z1R, I think the 900 is too fast in bass respond. Why ? Because this damn thing "Drone on" in the sub bass.....and the Z1R doesn't, but give out the authentic rumbles and it emotions. Yeah, I said that, the sub bass carry the emotions....never heard it before from headphones

 

[Sonic Defender]

   
EDIT: Just saw this reply by Whitgir that better transmitted what I was trying to write about.
 

You both provided very useful information, thank you for that. I'm just a little careful now as I do listen to music with plenty of bass information and I have found that if the decay isn't controlled enough the bass can start to sound undifferentiated and the notes will carry on for un-realistic periods of time. I'm starting to wonder about the balance between driver size and dampening constraints. I have to do some careful thinking as my tastes fall in between reference, and warmer, coloured signatures. I call my self a bass-head lite. I need enough bass, it must have impact, but I still require detail and effective control. It does sound like the Z1R is pretty close to ideal for me, but I do have modest concerns still.

 

[Sonic Defender]

...TH900 may be the king of bass, but in compare to Z1R, I think the 900 is too fast in bass respond. Why ? Because this damn thing "Drone on" in the sub bass.....and the Z1R doesn't, but give out the authentic rumbles and it emotions. Yeah, I said that, the sub bass carry the emotions....never heard it before from headphones

Unless I'm missing something here, the faster a headphones bass tracking ability the less it will drone on, notes in that case would be cut short making the sound less natural. It is a tough line to walk controlling the movement of a driver while still allowing a natural amount of decay.