[Whitigir]

Wow! Something new! Thank you

 

[Naim.F.C]

So let me get this straight, you're straight up declaring Tyll's pair to be an outlier as fact based on two measurements? What about the other measurements posted, including Marv and speakerphone?

Let's take two steps back, and just comment on what is being presented, not jump to conclusions. That whole jumping to conclusions is exactly why this whole fiasco started in the first place.

I'm basing it on my OWN experience correlating to other response charts. As mentioned previously in the thread, I actually owned multiple MDR-Z1R's, and offered a comparison between them. Essentially they sounded near enough exactly the same, minus a very, very slight difference, almost imperceptible, which I felt could be more down to the shape of the earpads than the actual headphones, as the earpads varied slightly it terms of stitching uniformity and depth.

Regarding Tyll (and other reviewers and forum members), I'm just very sceptical about opinions in general at the moment, having come across so many instances where I've flat out disagreed, felt they were hypocritical, or simply well off the mark, after actually personally testing cans, amps, cables and all the rest, including blind testing at every opportunity I get.

As just one example, the massive amounts of praise that the HD800 got, the same headphone that people are these days modding left and right to sound more acceptable. Tyll was happy to declare the HD800 a massive winner and extremely well balanced, despite the headphones clearly being slanted towards articulation and coldness (which to his credit he did touch on), and despite him and others later recommending multiple mods, EQ tweaks and all the rest to get them to sound ironically better 'balanced', essentially adapting how they sound altogether! Note he hasn't offered the same advice or tweaks for cans such as the MDR-Z1R.

As a side, usually when people say certain headphones are "brutally honest" or will constantly show up "bad recordings" or are "really picky with amps", generally what that says to me is that the headphones themselves are too harsh and/or cold, and the reviewer or user is simply making excuses for that, or justifying improper sonic balancing. At least that has been my experience thus far anyway.

By the way, who's Marv?

 

[pietcux]

I'm basing it on my OWN experience correlating to other response charts. As mentioned previously in the thread, I actually owned multiple MDR-Z1R's, and offered a comparison between them. Essentially they sounded near enough exactly the same, minus a very, very slight difference, almost imperceptible, which I felt could be more down to the shape of the earpads than the actual headphones, as the earpads varied slightly it terms of stitching uniformity and depth.

Regarding Tyll (and other reviewers and forum members), I'm just very sceptical about opinions in general at the moment, having come across so many instances where I've flat out disagreed, felt they were hypocritical, or simply well off the mark, after actually personally testing cans, amps, cables and all the rest, including blind testing at every opportunity I get.

As just one example, the massive amounts of praise that the HD800 got, the same headphone that people are these days modding left and right to sound more acceptable. Tyll was happy to declare the HD800 a massive winner and extremely well balanced, despite the headphones clearly being slanted towards articulation and coldness (which to his credit he did touch on), and despite him and others later recommending multiple mods, EQ tweaks and all the rest to get them to sound ironically better 'balanced', essentially adapting how they sound altogether! Note he hasn't offered the same advice or tweaks for cans such as the MDR-Z1R.

As a side, usually when people say certain headphones are "brutally honest" or will constantly show up "bad recordings" or are "really picky with amps", generally what that says to me is that the headphones themselves are too harsh and/or cold, and the reviewer or user is simply making excuses for that, or justifying improper sonic balancing. At least that has been my experience thus far anyway.

By the way, who's Marv?

He is member here under the nick Purrin.

 

[headr]

That whole jumping to conclusions is exactly why this whole fiasco started in the first place.

It seems to me the fiasco started when a bunch of people who never in their entire lives heard the Z1R started commenting regarding the quality of said headphone in threads like these.

 

[Martin79]

Ha ha ha ha! It's true! Ha ha ha ha!

 

[TSAVJason]

Still thinking Z1R is good but not worth the price?
amazon jp jpy$178000 -> USD$1585.56, per my previous purchase from the site.
The price includes tax (5%?) so it will be deducted at checkout, but it will add shipping.
You have to create a new account, it is separate from US site.
Good luck, proceed on your own risk.
(don't burn me, us dealers, and don't start again those fights from before ...a.uk)

No dealer would say anything other than any out of territory sale simply means there is no warranty. Grey market is grey market. These are risks only a consumer would take so it's on you.

 

[Robert Joe]

Are the Sony z1r any good for rock and pop music? I mostly listen to bands like AC/DC, 90's grunge, top 40 and so on.

My current setup is erc-3 - > schiit yggy - > schiit rag - > oppo pm2. Balanced connection from start to finish.

Sadly, the pm2 is the only headphone I've heard on this setup so idk where to go from here. I find the pm2 to sound great but the imaging and soundstage are lacking.

Would the z1r be a good match to my system and music I listen to or would a different TOTL headphone be better?

I listen to mostly rock and pop and Z1R are perfect for this. If you can't afford them then Audioquest Nighthawk/Nightowl is another recommendation. The problem with many other headphones is they are too bright and analytical already and older pop/rock recordings make it too harsh sounding. That is not to say the Z1R is bad for "audiophile" music, I think they sound great on that genre as well.

If you want to also take it to another level of musicality then get rid of the schitt crap and buy a DSD DAC. I used Roon to upsample to DSD128 and a $500 Teac UD-501 and it sounds awesome.

 

[pietcux]

Are the Sony z1r any good for rock and pop music? I mostly listen to bands like AC/DC, 90's grunge, top 40 and so on.

My current setup is erc-3 - > schiit yggy - > schiit rag - > oppo pm2. Balanced connection from start to finish.

Sadly, the pm2 is the only headphone I've heard on this setup so idk where to go from here. I find the pm2 to sound great but the imaging and soundstage are lacking.

Would the z1r be a good match to my system and music I listen to or would a different TOTL headphone be better?

I dig them with Elton John, Supertramp, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, ZZTop, Bob Dylan, Angus and Julia Stone, Eminem, The Beatles...... All of them really shine with the Z1r and make good use of it's bass capability.

 

[Rowethren]

If you want to also take it to another level of musicality then get rid of the schitt crap and buy a DSD DAC. I used Roon to upsample to DSD128 and a $500 Teac UD-501 and it sounds awesome

Replace one of the best DACs you can get for any money... Seem legit... I think I will stick with my Schiit stack personally,

 

[OldRoadToad]

When one disagrees it is gentlemanly to do so in an agreeable manner. It is just a freaking headphone and I doubt any here have the testicular fortitude to misbehave so in the real world.

Till is a good man and the Sony is just a headphone. A headphone is an inanimate object. It can not pick you up when you have fallen. But a friend can.

I would say more and with more wit and flair than many, if any, could match much less surpass but the mods here take a dim view of such things unless they agree and I have zero doubt any would. Suffice to say that to Tyll's pusillanimous detractors, I bite my thumb at you.

ORT

 

[Sonic Defender]

Replace one of the best DACs you can get for any money... Seem legit... I think I will stick with my Schiit stack personally,

Yah, I would say you can file that suggestion ... LOL, like the Yggy is crap. Sorry, have to hold the laughter in.

 

[up late]

It seems to me the fiasco started when a bunch of people who never in their entire lives heard the Z1R started commenting regarding the quality of said headphone in threads like these.

folks who criticise headphones without having tried them don't add value to any thread. i've been following this thread from the beginning, and i think it was tyll's critical review of the z1r that was the catalyst for much of the heated debate that followed. then jude's post detailing his impressions and measurements which differed from tyll's reignited it. it's been lively to say the least.

 

[Naim.F.C]

I saw the discussion here of Tyll Hertsens' measurements and review of the Sony MDR-Z1R at InnerFidelity (link), and I was very surprised by his findings, both subjective and measured.

I'm a big fan of the Sony MDR-Z1R, and I won't argue that one should like it or not (that's something you'll have to listen to and decide for yourselves), but I just couldn't reconcile his comments with what I was hearing. Let's start with the subjective comments:

I can understand this assessment. It's a bass-rich headphone for sure. I dig the MDR-Z1R a lot, but I can understand how others may not. (For example, @AxelCloris likes the headphone, but it is a bit too bass-heavy for his tastes, so he doesn't listen to it often.)

While I don't find the presence region to sound withdrawn, I can understand (again) that the bass, on balance, may be thick for some.

Now this description does not match what I have heard, and I've heard a few Sony MDR-Z1R's. I've also measured our Sony MDR-Z1R and it also isn't consistent with that subjective impression or the measurements that Tyll posted. Here's InnerFidelity's Sony MDR-Z1R frequency response plot:



As you can see above, Tyll's measurement of the Sony MDR-Z1R does show a large peak at 10 kHz--this is something I have not heard (and I would definitely hear that), and it is also something we haven't measured with our Sony MDR-Z1R here.

However, our Sony MDR-Z1R is a pre-production prototype--Serial Number X009. It was probably one of the first near-production Sony MDR-Z1R units to leave Sony's possession. Because of this, I wasn't sure that any impressions or measurements of this particular unit (Serial Number X009) were fit to compare to what I assume is a production Sony MDR-Z1R (InnerFidelity's unit). That said, I have heard other Sony MDR-Z1R's in event/meet environments and never noticed such a hot treble.

I had this discussion with another Sony MDR-Z1R owner, and he likewise did not hear that. I asked him to send me his Sony MDR-Z1R. It arrived today, and I measured it. Here is the frequency response measurement of both the production MDR-Z1R (solid line) and our prototype MDR-Z1R (dotted lines):



While it could reasonably be said that these measurements (InnerFidelity's and ours) are somewhat similar up to a point, there are some very substantial differences--like the absence of that mountainous 10 kHz peak that InnerFidelity's measurement is showing. (Again, we are not hearing this either.)

Our total harmonic distortion measurements are also different. InnerFidelity also posted this Sony MDR-Z1R THD (total harmonic distortion) measurement:



And here is the comment about the Sony MDR-Z1R's THD in the review:


Here is our total harmonic distortion measurement of both Sony MDR-Z1R units we have on hand:



The graph above shows THD measured with the output level set at 90 dBSPL at 1kHz. Even when driven to 100 dBSPL at 1 kHz, bass region THD did not exceed 0.78%. In short, we are not showing bass distortion to be problematic at either 90 dBSPL or 100 dBSPL.

As a relevant FYI, our G.R.A.S. 45BB-12 is completely enclosed in a lab-grade acoustic/vibration isolation enclosure by Herzan which we have found to help a great deal (in addition to the rest of the measurement system) with THD measurements (especially in the lower frequency ranges). (Though this enclosure weighs around 1200 pounds, it's actually a smaller version of the type THX uses in their lab.) Our enclosure also has an anti-vibration platform that the G.R.A.S. 45BB-12 sits on that can isolate the 45BB-12 from vibration down to 4 Hz. Also, the cable ports are completely sealed. (See photos below.)

What's our conclusion? Right now, we'll assume that perhaps Tyll has an outlier Sony MDR-Z1R. n=3 across two different measurement setups isn't enough to come to a conclusion. If Tyll will allow us to measure the MDR-Z1R he has, that would certainly be helpful. We'll also be receiving at least one other production MDR-Z1R, and we'll measure that, too. Based on what we've heard here (and also on hearing other MDR-Z1R's)--and based on many reviews/impressions that predated the publishing of Tyll's measurements--we'll also assume for the moment that our impressions and measurements are more representative of the MDR-Z1R's that are out in the wild.

More to come.

NOTE: Though we haven't said a whole lot about it yet, we have spent over two years building our measurement lab at Head-Fi HQ, and we worked very closely with Audio Precision, G.R.A.S., Herzan, and a number of experts in the industry who've also been instrumental in helping us. We have an episode (or two, or three) of Head-Fi TV planned just to discuss our measurement lab, how it evolved, and how we've been quietly measuring audio gear (both electronic and electro-acoustic) for over two years now, and what we'll be doing with it. The somewhat unexpected website transition project delayed some of our plans to go over all of this, but it's coming, and there's a lot to talk about (and there'll be a lot to talk about going forward).


(Left to right) Closed left-side cable port on the Herzan acoustic/vibration isolation enclosure; G.R.A.S. 45BB-12 inside the Herzan enclosure.

---

Our audio measurements in this post were made using:

• G.R.A.S. 45BB-12 KEMAR with anthropometric pinnae for low-noise earphone and headphone testing (whitepaper)
  • This is a next-generation headphone testing setup, and you can read more about it by clicking here: Next Generation Headphone Testing
  • I will be posting more details about this system soon, as it is definitely worth discussing in detail.
• Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer
• Audio Precision APx1701 Transducer Test Interface
• Herzan custom acoustic enclosure
• The frequency response measurements reflect diffuse field correction applied via the APx555's input EQ.

---

NOTE: Added some further information about (and photos of) the pinnae and microphones in our measurement system (LINK)

​

Great post.

The 10k spike.

I'd just like to chime in with what I've already said previously, that I've had multiple MDR-Z1R's in my possession now and can confirm that not only did I not perceive any notable 10k spike in any of them, the headphones are actually among the most inoffensive I've actually ever used among high end cans. All the MDR-Z1R's I had in my possession were easy to listen to and completely unfatiguing except at ear piercing volumes, unlike for example my HD800, HD800S and at times, T1.1's. Really the only high-end headphones I've used in recent memory that were less fatiguing or harsh than the MDR-Z1R's, are the LCD-2's and LCD-3's, both of which I felt lacked a tad in upper-frequency sparkle.

Differences between copies.

Regarding differences between copies, the ones that I had all sounded almost identical. The very, very slight differences I could percieve, I felt could be down to differences in the earpads, not necessarily the actual headphones themselves. The earpads are all hand made and stitched, and as such there are differences among them. One pair I had, in particular, had far slimmer earpads, which I felt might have made them sound a touch more forward, intricate and a touch less bassy.

An image showing the sort of thickness differences possible.

I should stress though that even when A/B'ing between the different pads, where the extremities between certain pads were quite dramatic, there were still only very, very subtle differences in sound. Very hard to pick up, including in blind A/B'ing. Ultimately of the MDR-Z1R's I used, the actual units themselves sounded near enough the same. Certainly, none exhibited anywhere near the huge 10k spike that Tyll has in his measurements.

Other spikes.

Regarding picking up other spikes and responding to Marv specifically, who wrote;

Jude says that the 10kHz peak is "something that he has not heard (and I would definitely hear that)." But let's assume that I am wrong about the frequency shift, or even wrong about the null-to-ridge behaviour. Then why does Jude not hear the smaller peaks at #3 and #4, 6.5kHz and 8kHz respectively?

The answer to this is context. If you actually compare Jude's measurements of the Z1R's to other high-end headphones, you'll notice other prominent headphones actually have bigger spikes in the 5k to 20k range, including the HD800 and Utopia, which both have a fairly big spike or bump around the 6k and 14k regions. The biggest difference, however, and why I mention context, is that these other headphones also have less prominent db in almost all other areas of frequency comparative to the MDR-Z1R. So the reason these 3k, 4k etc, bumps that Marvey mentions, aren't as glaring or notable in the MDR-Z1R is likely because there's more emphasis on bass, mids etc, to balance things out. No doubt these bumps elsewhere in the frequency range, were included to compensate for the added bass presence and quantity, which is probably why the Z1R's still maintain a surprisngly wide soundstage, high level of imaging, and overall tonal honesty, despite being overall somewhat bass emphasised. I don't personally find them as shrill, thin or high frequency hot as cans like the TH900's and LCD-XC's can sometimes sound, both of which I'd say are also fairly bass emphasised headphones.

I'll just refer back to my rough mega comparison which uses N00b's MDR-Z1R measurements (which are extremely similar to Jude's) to highlight some of the above.

EDIT: Didn't realise Jude's post was in this same thread. I thought I was responding to a different thread altogether, hence some of the repetition of some of the points!

 

[buzzlulu]

Relevant post from Dan Wiggins of Periodic Audio:

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/h...different-results.751100/page-2#post-13569173

I am really surprised not many people have commented on this post. This is the most astute thing I have read about this entire debate, written by an expert, and 100% explains why many of these measurements need to be SERIOUSLY questioned.

 

[rnros]

I am really surprised not many people have commented on this post. This is the most astute thing I have read about this entire debate, written by an expert, and 100% explains why many of these measurements need to be SERIOUSLY questioned.

Agreed. Great perspective on the equipment and the actual application.