[thatonenoob]

Is anyone here actually listening to and enjoying their Z1Rs? I know I am. The dumb 10 khz bump.....veiled......upper mids.....blah blah.....my god. Not sure what all the drama is for. Everyone is suddenly offended now. If you don't care for them then please stop trying to convince others who do enjoy them to change their minds.

Still do. When I wrote the review, I was the first (and correct me if I'm wrong) to point out the 3kHz massive ringing in my measurements. I noted this, but few seemed overly concerned by it (either that or no one made it that far through the review ). Perhaps it is a coupler error (though the other site seems to have it), or a faulty unit, or whatever. But my point is that it should've been a red flag for most.

But people continued to enjoy it. Now, with greater publicity - this situation occurs. It really begs the question if the headphone is at fault, or the need to defend a purchase. I personally feel that if you enjoyed it before, you should still continue to enjoy it. Don't feel bad because someone tells you otherwise?

There's really no drama. But this thread has turned into more of an audiophile venting area where old grudges and angst are now being thrown under the premise of "objectivity", "subjectivity", and whatever.

We need to let Jude and Tyll take their time to further discuss measurements and collaborate, not add touches of insanity that will only make this worse.

Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
"There's something happening here / What it is ain't exactly clear"

 

[headr]

I think people are taking these headphone reviews way too seriously.

If you like the way Tyll reviews headphones, and generally agree with him and/or can make your purchase decision based off his advice, all the power to you.

If you instead prefer Jude, or some other measurement reviewer, or some other subjective reviewer, by all means, follow them and use their advice to purchase your next headphones.

Headphones are not above criticism, and not all headphones are for everyone. The exact same is true of headphone reviewers.

It seems over the last few years, there has been a general shift in attitudes, where it isn't enough to quietly find, discover, and enjoy your own headphone with an audiophile community.

There now seems to be a palpable desire to not only find your own headphone, but also to justify it to the world that this is indeed the best headphone, and anyone who thinks differently should be chastised.

I think part of the blame is the rise of measurements in the first place. It gives the illusion of an objective standard by which to measure all other headphones. The problem is, it is just an illusion. Coming from the speaker world, speakers which don't measure perfectly can have a very unique and desirable sound signature. Speakers that do measure relatively perfectly are not necessarily all that expensive (or even desirable).

If you personally find that objective measurements line up with your personal preference, no one can tell you otherwise. But also understand that you are not the judge jury and executioner for all audio taste everywhere. Respect that not only are there no ideal optimal frequency responses / compensation curves, but also that people can fundamentally have different preferences.

I think another part of the issue is that as headphones have been inching up in price, people's emotions have become more intensely intertwined with their purchases. Buying a thousand dollar headphone now has a more serious gravity compared to trying a headphone at five hundred. As such, people have a more heavily vested interest in being right about their decisions, and as such tend to use certain methods of evaluating headphones as a bit of a crutch in lieu of being able to try, buy, and resell headphones more easily. To this I say - this hobby is all about personal enjoyment. If you personally feel that you have to justify your own purchases to the extent of attacking other people's personal preferences, take a step back and consider that this is all about enjoying the music. We use our equipment to listen to our music, not the other way around.

All that said, the Z1R are one of my favorite headphones I have ever listened to. They also have the benefit of having a great, ubiquitous distributor in Sony. Don't believe everything you read online, and I encourage you to seek out and try them if you get a chance. If they aren't for you, so be it, but understand that I enjoy them very much, and the fact that you may not like them doesn't and shouldn't factor in to my enjoyment of them. And by the same token, the fact I like them should not pressure you into feeling you have to defend your own opinion. It's all about the music.

 

[Sonic Defender]

• This whole mess doesn't help the hobby and neither does a 2.5K closed back that at best comes in at 1K for performance.

Now, lastly... Jude's pair is the only one to not show those oddities while other pairs measure those oddities noticeably

May I ask how much time you have spent with the Z1R? I'm not sure how we can apportion the value of cost as it translates to sound quality. I have read from people who think the idea that the Utopia is worth 4K is simply absurd, others will disagree (sadly I have not heard the Utopia and even while I was in France I could not find a dealer with a demo unit). As well, Jude measured more than one Z1R. It is entirely possible, not saying this is a fact, but it remains entirely possible that all of the other testing rigs as good as they are suffer from an issue that causes them to all similarly become inaccurate in the very difficult to measure upper frequencies. We don't know yet as there is more data to be gathered. Perhaps it will turn out that Jude's measuring rig has the issue, we don't know yet. I think all of this is just noise so why not all get back to enjoying the music and pretty soon Jude and Tyll will do the data collecting and report their findings to us all I'm sure.

 

[grizzlybeast]

May I ask how much time you have spent with the Z1R? I'm not sure how we can apportion the value of cost as it translates to sound quality. I have read from people who think the idea that the Utopia is worth 4K is simply absurd, others will disagree (sadly I have not heard the Utopia and even while I was in France I could not find a dealer with a demo unit). As well, Jude measured more than one Z1R. It is entirely possible, not saying this is a fact, but it remains entirely possible that all of the other testing rigs as good as they are suffer from an issue that causes them to all similarly become inaccurate in the very difficult to measure upper frequencies. We don't know yet as there is more data to be gathered. Perhaps it will turn out that Jude's measuring rig has the issue, we don't know yet. I think all of this is just noise so why not all get back to enjoying the music and pretty soon Jude and Tyll will do the data collecting and report their findings to us all I'm sure.

10 days on a well used pair. I actually like the Z1R to a degree I just don't feel it is competitive

Not really entering a debate here nor do I desire to explain why I believe that(in bold) to be outright silly.

 

[Imperfectionist]

To me, measurements are just clues pointing me to the correct direction. Tyll or Jude, it doesn't matter to me since I enjoy my z1r tremendously.
It's like a seductress, always beckoning and when I succumb, bliss ensues.
And I do switch between m50x and z1r often.
There are quite a few individuals that are too obsessed with what they think is right. Arts, just like beauty, is a complicated equation.
Enjoy what you like because life do not need to be too complicated.

 

[Brooko]

[Mod Comment]

Just spent the last hour editing, removing, and sending messages (all related to this thread). Getting a lot of flags regarding off-topic, personal attacks, and other silly stuff. If you can't keep it about the topic at hand, then don't post - its as simple as that. And if you're starting to get personal about another member - curb your impulses - please. The moderation team here would prefer not to have to step in. If the same people repeat the same patterns - we might have to make sure the rules are being followed. No-one wants that.

Thanks

 

[nc8000]

How is the HE-6? Do you enjoy it the same, more than the Z1R? I realize they are both quite different and I suspect you use them for different things, but just curious what you think. I owned the HE-560 driven by speaker taps and I still sometimes think the HE-6 remains a must have headphone for me.

I like the HE-6 very much and yes quit different in tone from Z1R and yes they are used at different times. HE-6 when I'm alone and Z1R when the wife is around and don't want ti hear much of what I'm listening to. If total isolation is needed then JH13 comes in play

 

[jude]

Personally, don't take the measurement so serious. The placement of the HP on the H.A.T.S. will vary the result. The hardness of the artificial ears will vary the result. The equipment variation will affect the result. There're many many factors.......

You're absolutely right that there will be differences in results between different measurement rigs. You're also right that the hardness (and other aspects) of the artificial ears may vary the result. For couplers, we started off with the G.R.A.S. 45CA, which uses the type of pinnae and ear simulators common to most lab-type heads used for headphone measurements. Last year, we switched to the G.R.A.S. 45BB-12 for a number of reasons, which I'll be posting about (both here on the forums and on videos) in greater detail later. (We still have the 45CA, and will keep it for further studies and comparisons.)

However, specific to your comment, among the updates that came with the 45BB-12 were G.R.A.S.'s new anthropometric pinnae that are designed to represent a mean human ear canal, based on a project from Denmark's Technical University (DTU) that mapped the scope of the human ear canal using over 300 three-dimensional scans of human ear canals. This results in some key changes versus standard measurement ears. Starting with the canals, these measurement pinnae represent characteristics of the human ear canal, including the canal's 1st and 2nd bend, the oval interface with the concha, and "flesh" all the way to the eardrum--of course, there were tweaks that were necessary to adapt the mean human ear canal to the ear simulator microphone, but the overall characteristics were preserved.

Here's a cut-through view of one of the anthropometric pinnae:

​

By comparison, other measurement pinnae have ear canal extensions that are cylindrical or conical and that do not mimic the complexity of the human ear canal. These pinnae/canals were initially designed for testing hearing aids, so the cylindrical and conical canal extensions worked well for those applications.

Immediately below are photos showing one of our original standard pinnae. Note that the "flesh" in the canal ends quickly, coupling to the cylindrical metal extension that leads to the microphone (ear simulator). Also, note the canal shape to the microphone is a straight cylinder. Again, this is the most common type of configuration found in lab-type headphone measurement heads.

​

Here are a couple of photos (below) showing one of our anthropometric pinnae, its canal (with bends and features more consistent with human canals), and "flesh" all the way to the eardrum.

​

Additionally, the outer portions of the anthropometric pinnae are designed to be softer, with structural changes that make them more realistic, more flexible, more like actual human ears. Here are two photos (below), the one on the left showing a supra-aural headphone on one of our original pinnae, and the one on the right showing that same headphone resting on the new anthropometric pinnae.

​

Versus standard measurement pinnae, the more human-like softness of these anthropometric pinnae don't only behave and compress differently with supra-aural (on-the-ear) headphones, but also with circumaural (around-the-ear) headphones, especially when they're shallow enough that the inside of the earcup makes contact with the pinnae, as we've found most circumaurals will do. (We've also found these new pinnae/canals also help a lot with most IEM measurements, but that's another topic.)

The updates to the pinnae/canals alone may contribute to differences in the measurements when compared to other systems.

Another key difference with the 45BB-12 is the inclusion of the new G.R.A.S. 43BB low-noise hearing simulators. I won't go into great detail about these new simulators here, but I do want to mention that the 43BB introduces updates versus the IEC 60318-4 (60711) ear simulators commonly used. The low-noise microphones have very high sensitivity and low inherent damping, which results in key differences between a standard 60318-4 (60711) ear simulator and a 60318-4 (60711) with the low-noise microphone. Up to 10 kHz, the low-noise microphone is similar to a standard 60318-4 (60711) simulator. However, beyond 10 kHz, the differences are substantial--the standard simulator has a high-Q resonance at around 13.5 kHz. With the low-noise simulator, that single high-Q resonance is replaced by two smaller resonances. A filter unit controls the mechanical resonance of the low-noise microphone. The combination of the filter and the low damping of the diaphragm cancels out the high peak of the resonance in the simulator. Of course, among the goals for this is more meaningful measurement data beyond 10 kHz.

The updates to the ear simulators may also contribute to differences in the measurements when compared to other systems.

Again, we are seeing differences between some of our measurements and others. I'm not going to discuss those differences now, but we've been doing informal surveying to examine subjective correlation with the measurements, particularly when we're seeing differences from other measurements, and it's been an interesting enough activity that we'll likely be more formal with this exercise down the road.

There are so many different measurement rigs. I have prevously discussed many of the different systems we've seen measurements from here on Head-Fi, but that post certainly doesn't come close to covering all of them. As described in that post, some are more industry standard lab-type setups, like InnerFidelity's, Brent Butterworth's, and ours. Most are probably DIY measurement setups. For example, one of the MDR-Z1R measurements recently posted in this thread (and in InnerFidelity's recent article about this thread) was made with a setup described by its user as "...a piece of leather and some felt tapped to a broken lamp. But it does seem relatively accurate for most measurements."

As Tyll has done (and which we used and learned from when we started with this a couple of years ago), we will be shooting some Head-Fi TV videos that go into more detail about our audio measurement setups here, as well as some of our audio measurement procedures (especially where electro-acoustic measurements are concerned, as they can be more nuanced than solely electronic measurements). If you’re using headphone measurements to help you make buying decisions--or to guide your headphone DIY modifications--it would be tremendously helpful to know more about the various differences in systems, methods and procedures used by your preferred source(s) of headphone measurement data.

Long story long, as you've mentioned, @Music818, the various systems, procedures, and even the hardness and shape of the pinnae/canals will impact the measurements. Again, this is something we'll be examining further, on an ongoing basis.

---

NOTE: Much of the technical information about the anthropometric pinnae and the low-noise ear simulators mentioned above comes from this whitepaper by Peter Wulf-Andersen & Morten Wille. Also, Mike Klasco from audioXpress wrote an excellent article about these new systems.

 

[up late]

I think people are taking these headphone reviews way too seriously.

If you like the way Tyll reviews headphones, and generally agree with him and/or can make your purchase decision based off his advice, all the power to you.

If you instead prefer Jude, or some other measurement reviewer, or some other subjective reviewer, by all means, follow them and use their advice to purchase your next headphones.

Headphones are not above criticism, and not all headphones are for everyone. The exact same is true of headphone reviewers.

It seems over the last few years, there has been a general shift in attitudes, where it isn't enough to quietly find, discover, and enjoy your own headphone with an audiophile community.

There now seems to be a palpable desire to not only find your own headphone, but also to justify it to the world that this is indeed the best headphone, and anyone who thinks differently should be chastised.

I think part of the blame is the rise of measurements in the first place. It gives the illusion of an objective standard by which to measure all other headphones. The problem is, it is just an illusion. Coming from the speaker world, speakers which don't measure perfectly can have a very unique and desirable sound signature. Speakers that do measure relatively perfectly are not necessarily all that expensive (or even desirable).

If you personally find that objective measurements line up with your personal preference, no one can tell you otherwise. But also understand that you are not the judge jury and executioner for all audio taste everywhere. Respect that not only are there no ideal optimal frequency responses / compensation curves, but also that people can fundamentally have different preferences.

I think another part of the issue is that as headphones have been inching up in price, people's emotions have become more intensely intertwined with their purchases. Buying a thousand dollar headphone now has a more serious gravity compared to trying a headphone at five hundred. As such, people have a more heavily vested interest in being right about their decisions, and as such tend to use certain methods of evaluating headphones as a bit of a crutch in lieu of being able to try, buy, and resell headphones more easily. To this I say - this hobby is all about personal enjoyment. If you personally feel that you have to justify your own purchases to the extent of attacking other people's personal preferences, take a step back and consider that this is all about enjoying the music. We use our equipment to listen to our music, not the other way around.

All that said, the Z1R are one of my favorite headphones I have ever listened to. They also have the benefit of having a great, ubiquitous distributor in Sony. Don't believe everything you read online, and I encourage you to seek out and try them if you get a chance. If they aren't for you, so be it, but understand that I enjoy them very much, and the fact that you may not like them doesn't and shouldn't factor in to my enjoyment of them. And by the same token, the fact I like them should not pressure you into feeling you have to defend your own opinion. It's all about the music.

i suppose it depends on what you mean by an "objective standard", but we have established standards/benchmarks that we use to measure and calibrate in the sciences, engineering, industries, architecture, trades and the list goes on. and these objective standards aren't set in stone. they are revised as our knowledge base increases.

loudspeaker manufacturers do use a flat frequency response as their objective standard to measure the performance of their loudspeakers against. whether they succeed in achieving that standard is another matter. and i certainly don't blame the "rise of measurements" in headphone audio because they're not the problem as i see it. they're a tool to be used and they can also be abused, unfortunately. so while i appreciate the sentiment of your post, it's not as if this hasn't all been said before many times in the forums and also in this thread.

 

[BunnyNamedCraig]

Anyone else regardless of their opinion on the matter, feel like hitting the snooze button on this thread right now?

 

[up late]

dunno about that but those anthropometric pinnae are kind of creeping me out

 

[ubs28]

That is interesting. Could there be a big swing in product variability like what we have seen with the Focal Utopia & LCD-4?

I will see if I can borrow a new Z1R (2017 version) since the one I had with a huge peak was an early production unit and see if things have changed.

If there is indeed significant variability, then Sony, Focal and Audeze have alot to learn from Sennheiser.

 

[rnros]

• This whole mess doesn't help the hobby and neither does a 2.5K closed back that at best comes in at 1K for performance.

NOW ^That is just my opinion of the headphone... more objectively speaking...

• It is not good for Jude who is relatively new at measuring (2 years max) to assume his measurements are correct and others are wrong. Others have been measuring for years upon years which means a higher chance of eliminating errors through trial and error. To arrive at the same knowledge from experience in 2 years, one would most likely have to spend hours upon hours and hours to gain the same experience. It is the man not the machine. If someone were to use an alien intelligent made sonic measuring device comprised of sophistication light years beyond ours it still wouldn't make the measurements more accurate or better yet relative if the crowd reading them didn't know how to interpret them (from a known compensation curve) or see how other familiar headphones measure.
• If Jude has measured several pairs of headphones and arrives at the same results, but Tyll's measurements correlate with eccentricities found on other pairs measured then we have to begin to really believe that it is not an outlier pair.
• The probability of Jude's 'several pairs' on side A and the 'various measurements' from side B conflicting due to an outlier pair is highly unlikely. Also measurements don't tell the whole story. There are way too many variables to account for to begin 'assuming for now'.
• Also the problem isn't just a 10K peak. Lots of other headphones have a peak there. It is a lack of ultimate control in the bass, a relatively unnatural timbre, and a withdrawn upper midrange. Compared to every closed back TOTL headphone out there, the MDR Z1R sounds the most recessed in the upper midrange. If Jude were to provide relativity by comparing his pair of sony's with other known high end closed backs you should see this region more suppressed than most of them. These impressions from Tyll, albeit short, mention a lack of body from the cymbals and a thinness. Dare one to actually listen to a cymbal on the Sony and another headphone with opposing balance in that area and then come at a different conclusion.

Now, lastly... Jude's pair is the only one to not show those oddities while other pairs measure those oddities noticeably (yet not exactly the same). You also have a slew of people applauding the Sony as the best closed back ever. The group of measurements (even from the camp that praises it) that show these eccentricities are not all one or likeminded but give an objective reference. The slew of praise is mostly subjective as is some of the negative impressions. What's the point? The point is that it is also an error to line up the one and only set of measurements that do not show these oddities with the slew of subjective impressions and conclude the one of many sets measuring this wacky balance is an oddity. You would have to assume that allllll of those other pairs are faulty....alll of them... or? the few pairs that Jude has to be the outlier.

Please do not take this as a shot at Jude. We all make errors in how we handle issues but we also should be allowed to point out ways that we feel each other have handled things incorrectly and then respond maturely. Looking at the whole picture and evidence instead of becoming attached to our purchases as if it is what identifies us. This issue is quite disruptive and I wish it were handled via phone call or email first and then brought to the public later. Why? because even though Tyll and Jude may conclude things peaceably, their followers will not.

Jeez Grizzly, that's a lot to unpack! I've enjoyed reading a lot of your posts on the forum, but this one, I don't know. Like picking ants out of the picnic jelly. Sure, I see the bullet points, but you have to stick to using them.

So far, this is what I think this is about:

• measurements
• Jude
• oddities and outliers
• Jude
• telephones and email
• Jude
• dumping all over one of my favorite headphones

Cheers!

 

[rnros]

Is anyone here actually listening to and enjoying their Z1Rs? I know I am. The dumb 10 khz bump.....veiled......upper mids.....blah blah.....my god. Not sure what all the drama is for. Everyone is suddenly offended now. If you don't care for them then please stop trying to convince others who do enjoy them to change their minds.

Yes, I am enjoying the Z1R. A lot. Enjoying the blah-blah too.
Drama? What is the drama for? Are you kidding me? Do you have parents? A spouse? A teenage daughter? I could go on.

I would say that's what makes us human, but chimps do drama also. It's a primate thing.

 

[rnros]

dunno about that but those anthropometric pinnae are kind of creeping me out

Seriously. Me too.