[-Kenny-]

Kenny,

We will not be releasing a new DAP immediately, and have not started working on any DAP other than the Explorer

Thanks for the fast reply. This has been, and actually still is, a very frustrating process. For us as a customer but apparently also for you. This puts it all in a different perspective.
Still looking forward to finally seeing and especially hearing the explorer in person though. Hopefully within the next two weeks.

 

[makethemusic]

Thanks for the fast reply. This has been, and actually still is, a very frustrating process. For us as a customer but apparently also for you. This puts it all in a different perspective.
Still looking forward to finally seeing and especially hearing the explorer in person though. Hopefully within the next two weeks.

Let's hope! To be honest I am very optimistic, albeit cautiously, and am absolutely looking forward to sending out an official "It's Shipped" email

 

[dlayman]

This is truly surreal. The Chief Commercial Officer of EB is sitting here with the rest of us, two years in, keeping fingers crossed, not reliably knowing the production status of their Chief Commercial Product, because information from EB's engineers has been unreliable, and for a very extended period of time. Of all the directions I thought this could go, this one never occurred to me. In 30 years of technical manufacturing, including subbing out products and manufacturing overseas in non-English speaking countries, I have never encountered a situation like this. While many people are empathizing, which is fine on a personal level, professionally I find it beyond baffling and somewhat appalling that it was allowed to happen at all.

This scenario did occur to somebody though. Somewhere much earlier in the thread somebody suggested that Echobox might really not know much about the true state of the Explorer because they were relying very heavily on third party contractors to develop and manufacture the product, and that these third parties might not be telling the truth. When I get time I want to try to find that post unless it was in a PM. Somebody either had inside info or was very astute.

One thing I can say with certainty is that if a manufacturing site or supplier is iffy, a lot of personal on site attention and a much ramped up quality testing program are needed. Often this requires weeks to months of being on site, watching, testing and monitoring of every detail, until the site shows they can and will make product that meets all quality parameters and specs. Happening? Not so much I guess.

 

[makethemusic]

This is truly surreal. The Chief Commercial Officer of EB is sitting here with the rest of us, two years in, keeping fingers crossed, not reliably knowing the production status of their Chief Commercial Product, because information from EB's engineers has been unreliable, and for a very extended period of time. Of all the directions I thought this could go, this one never occurred to me. In 30 years of technical manufacturing, including subbing out products and manufacturing overseas in non-English speaking countries, I have never encountered a situation like this. While many people are empathizing, which is fine on a personal level, professionally I find it beyond baffling and somewhat appalling that it was allowed to happen at all.

This scenario did occur to somebody though. Somewhere much earlier in the thread somebody suggested that Echobox might really not know much about the true state of the Explorer because they were relying very heavily on third party contractors to develop and manufacture the product, and that these third parties might not be telling the truth. When I get time I want to try to find that post unless it was in a PM. Somebody either had inside info or was very astute.

One thing I can say with certainty is that if a manufacturing site or supplier is iffy, a lot of personal on site attention and a much ramped up quality testing program are needed. Often this requires weeks to months of being on site, watching, testing and monitoring of every detail, until the site shows they can and will make product that meets all quality parameters and specs. Happening? Not so much I guess.

Thank you for your feedback @dlayman.

Our engineering team is not lying, and neither are our parts suppliers. They could certainly be better at communicating, that is an absolute truth, but lying? No, they are not lying to anyone.

I understand that you are frustrated, and rightfullyso. You have waited over a year for a product that was supposed to arrive June 2016, and that is an incredibly frustrating process. I would like you to understand, however, that no one has done this to you in order to deceive or scam you.

By all means, don't cut us any slack when it comes to your expectations that we will deliver a product, but please, try to understand that we are doing the best we can to bring this all together as soon as possible. We really are in production of the product, and it is going well This is the end of the road, and barring a few days of potential delays while production goes through it's process, this project is completed.

So, as I have said before and will say again now, for all of us involved let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for a continuation of positive news.

In the meantime, if you do have any specific questions about our production process, please email me at team@eboxaudio.com where I will be happy to fill you in so you no longer have to keep speculating guesses of what is going on.

 

[dlayman]

I'm

Smh. Disappointed but not surprised that the personal apologies and statements of regret again proven false, I really hoped there was some sincerity. Nope. Yes, I have made the sacrifices you mock, and that is as a salaried professional, not an executive officer of a company. I don't think you have the knowledge, competency, or willpower that's needed to succeed in this type of endeavor. My my, all those deep felt apologies about how poorly EB has performed, but when an educated proper course of action is proposed, you attack and ridicule because it doesn't suit your personal life choices. Shame, shame. You are so far over your head that you don't even know it. Resorting to personal attacks against your customers and backers, hours after you state they have every right to be furious with EB, which I am not. As a professional in this field, I can't even understand how EB does business and attacks their beleaguered customer base. You claim to admit to the failures of EB, and ask for more loyalty, but again attack when you are asked to be accountable. Same ole same ole for two plus years running. I have nothing against you as a person, but professionally EB is offensive to me. I'm sure this won't be taken to heart by you or anyone at EB, it maybe you can prove me wrong and pout forth the effort that is needed. Or you can again go silent. Or you can again get sarcastic and personally ridicule and attack me again.

Thanks for the insightful feedback @dlayman , I'll be sure to get on a plane today, leave my fiance and animals behind, and spend the next few months in China as a non-engineer "testing and monitoring every detail" as I have done many times over this past year. Except, I was just there for 2.5 weeks, and just got home, and going back would not allow me to do a single thing to help speed up the production process.

Our engineering team is not lying, and neither are our parts suppliers. They could certainly be better at communicating, that is an absolute truth, but lying? No, they are not lying to anyone.

I honestly get the feeling Daniel that no matter what I say to you it will not alter even an inch of your frustration about these delays. And in all honesty, it probably shouldn't.

I get it. You are pissed off, and understandably so. You have waited over a year for a product that was supposed to arrive June 2016, and that is an incredibly frustrating process. I would like you to understand, however, that no one has done this to you in order to deceive or scam you.

This has been an incredibly difficult product to develop for a wide array of reasons, and is run by a team of 3 core individuals, myself included, who handle everything from marketing and customer service to engineering and distribution.

By all means, don't cut us any slack when it comes to your expectations that we will deliver a product, but please, at the very least, understand that we are doing the best we can to bring this all together as soon as possible. We really are in production of the product, and are quite literally finished with the development process. This is the end of the road, and barring a few days of potential delays while production goes through it's process, this project is completed.

So, as I have said before and will say again now, for all of us involved let's keep our fingers crossed. Not because our engineering team doesn't know what they are doing, but because we are holdimg out hope that we don't run into any further last minute delay causing unforseable "Murphy's Law" scenarios.

In the meantime, if you do have any specific questions about our production process, please email me at team@eboxaudio.com where I will be happy to fill you in so you no longer have to keep speculating guesses of what is going on.

My my what a sarcastic reply after such a personal and sincere apology for the failures of EB. You mock the kind of sacrifices I have had to make, but I and my company succeeded. Yeah, I had to leave my wife and pets at home too. I was just a salaried professional, not an "executive" tiitled and entitled person. Hours after profusely apologizing for the poor performance of EB, you go on the offensive and again attackck your customer base for not having enough good will after two years of this. SMH.

EB has consistently demonstrated a lack of experience in technical manufacturing, which is why you are so far behind schedule, and when it is pointed out or suggestions made, you act like you are much more knowledgeable and superior to those who have experience in making it work. And you seem to lack the ability to listen to advice on a professional level, and resort to personal sarcasm and attacks. Good luck with that approach, you'll need it. As will anybody that has or will support or buy from you.

 

[maxmania]

EB!!!! I have to side with Daniel on this one, I think sometimes you need to just suck up the criticism and just take it when you are in the wrong. This crowd funding black hole which I and many find ourselves in at the moment should have been avoided period!
You have failed on some many points and biggest of them all is the Global release.

Everything which others have already highlighted on a number of occasions speaks volumes. I really wish you all the best in the future but I will not be recommending EB to anyone.

 

[VandyMan]

Our engineering team is not lying, and neither are our parts suppliers. They could certainly be better at communicating, that is an absolute truth, but lying? No, they are not lying to anyone.

I'm as frustrated as anyone with the delay and I think in the end the blame for the delays has to rest with the senior managers at Echobox. Blaming you staff is wrong. You are in charge.

However, as someone who has managed teams of software engineers remotely, I can attest to how difficult it is to get accurate estimates. I was often given dates that were wildly inaccurate. If I had not had the ability to roll up my sleeves and see what was going on for myself, it would have been hopeless. To put a non-engineer in an oversight role is a recipe for... well, exactly what happened. Additionally, even if you have an engineer in that role, engineers who can effectively manage an effort like this are pretty rare.

 

[bearFNF]

Then throw in the language barrier...We have this issue so often that we have to go to the site and wire-guide the process, even then it is not as easy or straight forward as it would seem.
I've spent months and months living out of a hotel to get the product moving, even a product update/MY change-over takes time and good onsite management.

 

[thefunkygibbon]

Thanks for the insightful feedback @dlayman , I'll be sure to get on a plane today, leave my fiance and animals behind, and spend the next few months in China as a non-engineer "testing and monitoring every detail" as I have done many times over this past year. Except, I was just there for 2.5 weeks, and just got home, and going back would not allow me to do a single thing to help speed up the production process.

Our engineering team is not lying, and neither are our parts suppliers. They could certainly be better at communicating, that is an absolute truth, but lying? No, they are not lying to anyone.

I honestly get the feeling Daniel that no matter what I say to you it will not alter even an inch of your frustration about these delays. And in all honesty, it probably shouldn't.

I get it. You are pissed off, and understandably so. You have waited over a year for a product that was supposed to arrive June 2016, and that is an incredibly frustrating process. I would like you to understand, however, that no one has done this to you in order to deceive or scam you.

This has been an incredibly difficult product to develop for a wide array of reasons, and is run by a team of 3 core individuals, myself included, who handle everything from marketing and customer service to engineering and distribution.

By all means, don't cut us any slack when it comes to your expectations that we will deliver a product, but please, at the very least, understand that we are doing the best we can to bring this all together as soon as possible. We really are in production of the product, and are quite literally finished with the development process. This is the end of the road, and barring a few days of potential delays while production goes through it's process, this project is completed.

So, as I have said before and will say again now, for all of us involved let's keep our fingers crossed. Not because our engineering team doesn't know what they are doing, but because we are holdimg out hope that we don't run into any further last minute delay causing unforseable "Murphy's Law" scenarios.

In the meantime, if you do have any specific questions about our production process, please email me at team@eboxaudio.com where I will be happy to fill you in so you no longer have to keep speculating guesses of what is going on.

I am sorry EB, but I have to agree with Daniel here too...

You posted on the IGG page you would be shipping Friday or Monday.

Then a few posts later your apologising for another delay due to more QC testing a component..

You also said you would only post when you have something concrete...

You have made your own bed, now you have to lay in it.

No one begrudges you time off with your family and friends, of course we don't, but you are not the only one who has to make sacrifices to complete a project...

And to be brutally honest, while I can certainly empathise with you, I don't really care about your personal life... and this is certainly not the place to bring it up..

As Daniel has said and I reiterate, you are accountable to us, not us to you..

And one more thing concerning your reply and it's tone..

We, your backers bought into your vision..

We therefore, on your promise to deliver, trusted you enough to invest money in your venture..

We entered into a professional transaction..

How dare you reply to one of your trusted backers in such a demeaning manner, especially on a public forum for all to see..

You should have had the respect to pm Daniel at the very least...

There are people on here who have met you and said you are a good guy, which is all very well, but that I am only interested in you professionally and your ability to deliver the excellent product you said you would. Nothing else.

 

[dlayman]

I am sorry EB, but I have to agree with Daniel here too...

You posted on the IGG page you would be shipping Friday or Monday.

Then a few posts later your apologising for another delay due to more QC testing a component..

You also said you would only post when you have something concrete...

You have made your own bed, now you have to lay in it.




No one begrudges you time off with your family and friends, of course we don't, but you are not the only one who has to make sacrifices to complete a project...

And to be brutally honest, while I can certainly empathise with you, I don't really care about your personal life... and this is certainly not the place to bring it up..

As Daniel has said and I reiterate, you are accountable to us, not us to you..

And one more thing concerning your reply and it's tone..

We, your backers bought into your vision..

We therefore, on your promise to deliver, trusted you enough to invest money in your venture..

We entered into a professional transaction..

How dare you reply to one of your trusted backers in such a demeaning manner, especially on a public forum for all to see..

You should have had the respect to pm Daniel at the very least...

There are people on here who have met you and said you are a good guy, which is all very well, but that I am only interested in you professionally and your ability to deliver the excellent product you said you would. Nothing else.

@thefunkygibbon and to the others who posted I appreciate your support. It doesn't bother me that @makethemusic posted that reply publicly. It just illustrates the attitude that Echobox has towards their backers and sheds more light on why this project has been such a colossal mess. I find it almost comical how someone with so little experience tries to talk down to someone who has been doing it for thirty years in four countries.

 

[makethemusic]

We will be delivering the product this week, likely Monday as we had hoped. If not Monday, it will still be within the week.

We have deep respect and appreciation to our backers, a fact we are proud of. We have backed our respect with over two years of hard work to build our vision from the ground up accompanied by a significant investment of time and energy to not only our backers, but the Head-Fi and CanJam communities as well. We are proud of this, and the negativity expressed here on this thread will not diminish our enthusiasm and engagement with the global HiFi community.

As always, you can reach us via our official support email, team@eboxaudio.com, with any questions or comments you may have. You may also reach us via our official Facebook page, facebook.com/echoboxaudio where we typically respond within the hour.

We will not, however, be posting any further development updates here on Head-Fi. If you wish to know the status of your explorer, you can feel free to check our IndoeGoGo page, Facebook page, or send us an email with your inquiry.

Head-Fi is an open forum for customers to voice their opinions in a respectful manner among a community of those who share a common interest. It is not a platform for companies to engage in official customer support, as doing so tends only to result in internet arguments and create bias in what is inherently meant to be an open forum.

We will occasionally post updates on new product announcements, as well as engage personally on subjects that are of interest to each of us that work here at Echobox. We will, however, no longer offer official customer support.

When the Explorer's ship, an email will be sent to notify all backers.

 

[thefunkygibbon]

We will be delivering the product this week, likely Monday as we had hoped. If not Monday, it will still be within the week.

We have deep respect and appreciation to our backers, a fact we are proud of. We have backed our respect with over two years of hard work to build our vision from the ground up accompanied by a significant investment of time and energy to not only our backers, but the Head-Fi and CanJam communities as well. We are proud of this, and the negativity expressed here on this thread will not diminish our enthusiasm and engagement with the global HiFi community.

As always, you can reach us via our official support email, team@eboxaudio.com, with any questions or comments you may have. You may also reach us via our official Facebook page, facebook.com/echoboxaudio where we typically respond within the hour.

We will not, however, be posting any further development updates here on Head-Fi. If you wish to know the status of your explorer, you can feel free to check our IndoeGoGo page, Facebook page, or send us an email with your inquiry.

Head-Fi is an open forum for customers to voice their opinions in a respectful manner among a community of those who share a common interest. It is not a platform for companies to engage in official customer support, as doing so tends only to result in internet arguments and create bias in what is inherently meant to be an open forum.

We will occasionally post updates on new product announcements, as well as engage personally on subjects that are of interest to each of us that work here at Echobox. We will, however, no longer offer official customer support.

When the Explorer's ship, an email will be sent to notify all backers.

No sorry, I disagree with you.

You knew coming here looking for investors was a good way to entice backers to invest in your vision. While I agree head fi is a forum for enthusiasts to discuss equipment, for this particular thread that is not the case.

You made it official and therefore professional by canvassing for backers, no one else.

The negativity, you deserve it. Some of your replies have simply been unacceptable and the criticism you received in return you more than deserve.

As I said and as have others no on has a problem with you personally but professionally you have been found wanting.

Now refusing to post here because of the negative posts directed at Echobox, and not you personally I must add again, just exacerbates the feeling of disrespect you have for us and your unwillingness to take accountability...

You came here looking for investment, we bought into your vision so I am afraid you are going to have to deal with all the negativity and criticism for your failings in the same way every other business has to..

If I offended you as person, that was not my intention, my ire is not directed at you the person, it is directed at you the professional and executive at Echobox who has not delivered on their promise.

Those 2 things are not the same...

 

[dlayman]

No sorry, I disagree with you.

You knew coming here looking for investors was a good way to entice backers to invest in your vision. While I agree head fi is a forum for enthusiasts to discuss equipment, for this particular thread that is not the case.

You made it official and therefore professional by canvassing for backers, no one else.

The negativity, you deserve it. Some of your replies have simply been unacceptable and the criticism you received in return you more than deserve.

As I said and as have others no on has a problem with you personally but professionally you have been found wanting.

Now refusing to post here because of the negative posts directed at Echobox, and not you personally I must add again, just exacerbates the feeling of disrespect you have for us and your unwillingness to take accountability...

You came here looking for investment, we bought into your vision so I am afraid you are going to have to deal with all the negativity and criticism for your failings in the same way every other business has to..

If I offended you as person, that was not my intention, my ire is not directed at you the person, it is directed at you the professional and executive at Echobox who has not delivered on their promise.

Those 2 things are not the same...

Very well said, I certainly couldn't state it as well. I have never used the word "scam" or other such words and have tried to discourage others from doing so, as it's an unwarranted and personal attack. On the professional side, there has been a huge amount of things to be critical of, and when it happens, @makethemusic goes to the personal side. It's one of the main reasons I don't take offense when he gets nasty with me, it is reflective of a lack of professional experience and success. I agree with your view of EB's use of this forum to promote sales, including being a paying sponsor. I'm not sure I agree with their now position of keeping quiet, but honestly it is probably the best for everyone as we don't gain much from their participation and they seem to be able to only further alienate their backers. In any case, it positions them behind their competitors in terms of customer engagement and support. I guess EB is ok with that, if it were me I wouldn't be and wouldn't be ok with officers of my company taking that position. My concern is that this is also going to result in a lack of ongoing support for the Explorer. Hopefully I'm wrong.

You can look at Shanling, FIIO, Cayin, and other threads and find negative comments and criticism, and those companies respond with recognition of the criticism and actions being taken to address the issues.

 

[dlayman]

Then throw in the language barrier...We have this issue so often that we have to go to the site and wire-guide the process, even then it is not as easy or straight forward as it would seem.
I've spent months and months living out of a hotel to get the product moving, even a product update/MY change-over takes time and good onsite management.

Yes, exactly my experience as well. Not pleasant but when you need to succeed, you do whatever you need to do, and it doesn't have to wreck your personal life and relationships.

 

[-Kenny-]

Wow! Looks like I missed a thing or two...
Are they actually surprised people are getting frustrated?