[Zanth]

I agree. This is why I am having trouble understanding your disappointment with how the new forum is being set up. The forum can't just be about cables and tweaks. I think we both agree on that. It can't just be about proving "subjectivists" wrong, and I know you don't want that either.

What do you want it to be specifically, or rather what are your hopes for it?

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hopefully, research and experience, I guess. See ya Steve

Hey Steve

This is going to be a wonderful forum.

1. You've got an alternative idea, it belongs here.
2. You've got a counter culture concept, here's the place.
3. You've got testing methodologies, we've got your subjects.
4. You want to discuss research, we're loaded with academics.
5. You have something to discuss that you can't in the other forums, here is where you can discuss it.
6. You have gear that can take measurements, or just want to discuss measurements, we're your huckleberry.
7. You want to exercise your brain and take on the prevailing views, here's your forum.

What's there not to like?

USG

 

[hempcamp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif What do you want it to be specifically, or rather what are your hopes for it?

The question wasn't directed at me, but here's my hope for it:

A place where those of us interested in a more rigorous approach to choosing our equipment can gather information and make wise decisions without a lot of inexact and highly subjective language like "sparkle" and "fast" etc.

AND

A place where new hobbyists can hear "the other side" when it comes to things like cables and the like before blindly emptying their wallets (as many of us -- including me -- used to do).

--Chris

 

[Zanth]

Chris, I think this is exactly what the new forum will involve. Upstateguy enumerated quite a few great points which I think the forum will live up to.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree. This is why I am having trouble understanding your disappointment with how the new forum is being set up.

It's hard to convey tone through typed words. I'm not at all disappointed. It's just looking like a forum that I won't be particularly interested in, that's all. That's perfectly fine. I get plenty to keep me occupied in the forums I already follow.

My main interest is in how to get great sound so I can listen to great music. I understand the place that subjective impressions hold in that process, and I understand the importance of understanding how things work from a scientific standpoint. I'm not in either camp on that. I'm a common sense kind of person. I like to see theories applied to solve an observable problem. I'm not interested in theory in an abstract way, and I'm not interested in not having no science at all.

It's actually easier for me to just participate on the subject of "cables, speakers, tweaks, etc", rather than divide it up into "believes cables make a difference" and "doesn't believe cables make a difference"- so this outcome is the way I'd prefer it anyway.

Does that explain it better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif What do you want it to be specifically, or rather what are your hopes for it?

My ideal is a place where any opinion can be expressed, and whether or not that opinion holds any weight depends solely on the way the person expressing the opinion is able to support it. I'd like to see people have a sense of humor about things, not go around with a stick up their butt looking for a fight. I'd like to see people remain courteous to each other, and not take disagreement with their opinions as a personal insult.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. The problem here has absolutely nothing to do with science. It has to do with people not being able to argue fairly on point. I think the schools should go back to teaching logic and debate instead of telling everyone that their ideas are all equal and no one is right and no one is wrong. People shouldn't get mad at people who disagree with them. They should behave like adults- either support their opinion well or concede and learn something new from the discussion.

See ya
Steve

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif My ideal is a place where any opinion can be expressed, and whether or not that opinion holds any weight depends solely on the way the person expressing the opinion is able to support it.

as an example of this ideal of equal and fair expression, do you mean something like a recent thread where the OP was comparing the sonic benefits of a Zu power cord over a stock one and in response you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Soundstage is created by the mixing engineer. It can be affected by acoustic things, like the shape of your room or the distance between your speakers, but it can't be affected by electronics unless something is very wrong with your system, like your speakers being wired out of phase.

and you really wonder why people asked for a separate cable forum.

 

[monolith]

His response in that thread was quite correct, and even if you disagree with it it's still a standpoint that belongs in the discussion.

Without an opinion/statement like that it's not equal and fair. The correct thing to do is to respond to what he said with whatever reason you have to disagree with it, not simply roll your eyes and plug your ears.

This seems to only reinforce the impression I get that this forum is being created to separate people who disagree, rather than to promote more informed, courteous discussion.

 

[upstateguy]

Big Shot does not want to go quietly into the night.

He is not wrong.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a choice.

So, come on Big Shot, get into the forum, the trains are getting ready to leave the station.... or not

USG

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif as an example of this ideal of equal and fair expression, do you mean something like a recent thread where the OP was comparing the sonic benefits of a Zu power cord over a stock one and in response you said: and you really wonder why people asked for a separate cable forum.

If someone had asked me to elaborate a bit on that, I would have been happy to... Soundstage is a creative effect where elements in a mix are given a left/right position, creating a proscenium effect between the two speakers. It's rarely a case of capturing a natural spread- except in the case of binaural recordings. Usually soundstage is created totally in the mix by the engineer. The aspects of sound reproduction that can affect soundstage are primarily phase and channel separation- with timing being much less of a factor than those. A power cord does nothing to affect any of that.

There's nothing particularly esoteric about this info. It's plain old Audio 101, just the same as knowing that wiring your speakers out of phase will suck the bass and energy out of the sound, or spikes in super audible frequencies can induce headaches. I don't understand what the problem is here.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Big Shot does not want to go quietly into the night.

I don't get all the drama to be honest. I'm just posting comments on a chat board, fer goo'ness sakes. I'm here to discuss music, cables, tweaks, speakers, turntables, iPods, audio engineering and restoration, computer sources and cameras. I'll post to the forums that are defined as being about those topics and chat with other people interested in the same subjects. I really don't have any experience in conducting scientific tests, so I don't have anything to add to a scientific testing forum. Those with an interest in that subject can feel free to participate in discussions on it to their heart's content without me.

As always, no one is under any obligation to respond to or even read my posts. I hope those who are all hot under the collar will just choose to cheerfully ignore me.

See ya
Steve

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't get all the drama to be honest. I'm just posting comments on a chat board, fer goo'ness sakes. I'm here to discuss music, cables, tweaks, speakers, turntables, iPods, audio engineering and restoration, computer sources and cameras. I'll post to the forums that are defined as being about those topics and chat with other people interested in the same subjects. I really don't have any experience in conducting scientific tests, so I don't have anything to add to a scientific testing forum. Those with an interest in that subject can feel free to participate in discussions on it to their heart's content without me. As always, no one is under any obligation to respond to or even read my posts. I hope those who are all hot under the collar will just choose to cheerfully ignore me. See ya Steve

No drama, just posting comments on a chat board...

The only thing I take issue with is that you are calling this a scientific testing forum. It is not. Scientific testing is just one of the things that can be discussed here.

Other than that, I will say again that I agree with the stance you are taking.

I'll see ya around.

USG

 

[kipman725]

May I just say... finally its like some kind of black magic circle (with a multi thousand dollar membership) in some of the boards here. It's even infected the DIY forum where you think people would use their heads a little more and realise they were been ripped off with $10 resistors.

 

[carmatic]

lets keep it objectivist and audio, ok guys?
I have an idea for testing headphones... Isnt it like, if you have a digital sound you should already be able to display the waveform on the screen... Get a multitude of people to compare between phones with the same song, and ask them where in the song the phones differ... Then open up the song in a wave editor, zoom in on that section... Next get a dummy head and some 'scientific' mics for each ear, and record the phones playing back the same song... Like, everything else is the same except for the phones... What you end up with is the original waveform, and the sound of the two different phones as recorded with the same mics, you can use the original waveform as a kind of 'map' and overlay the mic recordings and zoom into the sections where people have definitely heard a difference...that way people can actually see what others are talking about, not just try to convince each other that one person is more right than another...

 

[digger945]

Quote:

Originally Posted by carmatic /img/forum/go_quote.gif lets keep it objectivist and audio, ok guys? I have an idea for testing headphones... Isnt it like, if you have a digital sound you should already be able to display the waveform on the screen... Get a multitude of people to compare between phones with the same song, and ask them where in the song the phones differ... Then open up the song in a wave editor, zoom in on that section... Next get a dummy head and some 'scientific' mics for each ear, and record the phones playing back the same song... Like, everything else is the same except for the phones... What you end up with is the original waveform, and the sound of the two different phones as recorded with the same mics, you can use the original waveform as a kind of 'map' and overlay the mic recordings and zoom into the sections where people have definitely heard a difference...that way people can actually see what others are talking about, not just try to convince each other that one person is more right than another...

This is exactly what I have been thinking! What kind of software do we need to do this?

 

[digger945]

I took Cakewalk Pyro Audio Creator today and blew up the waves of a song until I could see only one thousandth of a sec on the screen. It may work to compare two signals, but now I need two mics for recording. I may be able to use my Event TR-8 monitors for some of the recording, or just record the headphones, or both. Must also know how to time two recordings to match the exact same point in the song.