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The Objectivist Audio Forum

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by upstateguy, Aug 9, 2008.
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  1. bigshot
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by acidbasement /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    I see people posting here already who are interested in doing and talking about science, toward the same ends that you profess to desire - acquiring and disseminating knowledge. I really don't know why you are trying to discourage this. Trying to take away our fun? [​IMG]



    No. Feel free to discuss it. Everyone has a different angle on things.

    See ya
    Steve
     
  2. philodox Contributor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    You might want to quote my post with the responses attached to it. Read down for a few posts. Some folks here have more of a sense of humor than you give them credit for.



    I fail to see how a bunch of your like minded buddies patting you on the back for your sweet burn lends your comment any credibility or usefulness. Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hadden /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    It's because your tone in these arguments is so glibly dismissive that you catch it Steve. Sort of like here where everyone who disagrees with you is supposedly mentally and socially immature. Give me a bloody break.



    QFT Quote:

    Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    So does anyone else find it sadly amusing that this thread has already taken on the tone that created the need for people to want an objectivist forum in the first place?



    Yup. [​IMG]

    As for the topic at hand, I am with Bigshot and the rest who think it is a bad idea to start this new forum off with a negative slant/description/perception. I do understand the frustration that has caused this though to be honest.

    I don't think of myself completely as a cable believer, nor do I completely discount scientific testing. What I do take issue with, and what places me in the 'subjectivist camp', is the attitude that human experience is useless. Taking measurements is fine as is any kind of testing methodology, including DBT, but you will never convince me that you know everything there is to know about a subject. Not only is it completely egocentric, it is very unscientific!

    I'm not saying that the subjectivists are universally amicable, but there are clearly a large number of objectivists that portray a dismissive and superior attitude. This has caused me to naturally gravitate towards the subjectivists' 'side' even though intellectually I am on the fence.

    I always find the placebo argument amusing as the objectivists often forget that it applies to them as well. If you go into the test firmly believing that there will be no differences, what do you think you will observe?
     
  3. upstateguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    I fail to see how a bunch of your like minded buddies patting you on the back for your sweet burn lends your comment any credibility or usefulness.QFTYup. [​IMG]

    As for the topic at hand, I am with Bigshot and the rest who think it is a bad idea to start this new forum off with a negative slant/description/perception. I do understand the frustration that has caused this though to be honest.

    I don't think of myself completely as a cable believer, nor do I completely discount scientific testing. What I do take issue with, and what places me in the 'subjectivist camp', is the attitude that human experience is useless. Taking measurements is fine as is any kind of testing methodology, including DBT, but you will never convince me that you know everything there is to know about a subject. Not only is it completely egocentric, it is very unscientific!

    I'm not saying that the subjectivists are universally amicable, but there are clearly a large number of objectivists that portray a dismissive and superior attitude. This has caused me to naturally gravitate towards the objectivists 'side' even though intellectually I am on the fence.

    I always find the placebo argument amusing as the objectivists often forget that it applies to them as well. If you go into the test firmly believing that there will be no differences, what do you think you will observe?




    Hi Philodox

    I'm not sure you meant to say that.

    I agree with you completely regarding the new forum, but it doesn't look like there is going to be much choice.

    Like you, I am also on the fence, but shy away from folklore. I like new technologies but I don't like snake oil.

    USG
     
  4. philodox Contributor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    I'm not sure you meant to say that.



    I didn't, thanks for noticing. Corrected my post. [​IMG] Quote:

    Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    Like you, I am also on the fence, but shy away from folklore. I like new technologies but I don't like snake oil.



    I don't think anyone, with some notable exceptions, likes snake oil. It's just a matter of what we consider to be snake oil. [​IMG]
     
  5. Publius
    A lot of this boils down to what constitutes acceptable justification for a belief. Accepting others' experiences as always worthy of respect makes for a nice, friendly forum, but it is hardly conducive to forming a conclusion about a topic that everybody involved can agree on. You've gotta be able to call ******** out in order to do that.

    In other words, demand for "objective" proof/forums/etc is fundamentally at odds with Head-Fi's basic culture. That said, many more people (myself included) crave that level of evidence nowadays, and personal experiences in a lot of ways doesn't cut the mustard for some topics. Headphones, yes. Sources, no.
     
  6. jude Administrator
    I've been chastised by some of my fellow Moderators about the crappy forum name and description I chose for this soon-to-be-released forum (and it is up, just waiting for the "on" switch to be thrown). Sorry, guys. It was due to frustration with how so many cable-related discussions were almost invariably going in recent times--which isn't an excuse for me to ridicule the substantial number of community members who are fool enough not to agree with me. [​IMG]

    Okay, so here's the deal: There will be an Objectivist Audio Forum (which is what it is tentatively named). It will not be a sub-forum of the cable forum, but on the same hierarchical level as the other equipment forums, as reasonably requested by some of you, including some of the Moderators in discussions with them.

    The separation is intended to serve as the best solution to both sides of this topic (and I'm not saying "both sides" to suggest it has to always be contentious, but just for lack of better words, and/or the time to think of better phrasing). The separation isn't at all intended to suggest one side is more right or more valid in its positions on matters related than the other side.It will likely take a little while to get a groove on with respect to how the conversations related will settle, migrate, morph, etc. between the two locations, but I do feel confident it will work itself out for the better.

    Again, I'm sorry for what some reasonably interpreted as a condescending forum name and description (as, well, they were sort of condescending). If you wish to put forth some suggestions on alternate names for the forum, now's the time. Currently, there is no description (to be placed under the forum name to describe what one is walking into by entering it), so if anyone wants to help draft something concise to describe it, we're open to the suggestions there, too.
     
  7. Akabeth Contributor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    Just For Fun:

    100 years ago------------- Here's the link

    Coughs:

    Put some cow dung in water and bring it to a boil. Gargle the water three times a day and your cough will be gone.

    Croup:

    Pack sheep droppings into a tobacco sack and soak in warm water. Apply the sack to your neck and wear it until the choking spell is over.

    Fever:

    Gather a supply of rabbit dung and make a strong tea of the dung in hot water. Strain and drink the tea every half hour until the sweating stops.

    Freckles:

    To remove freckles or skin spots — take a small flatfish fresh from the sea and hold it firmly against the skin until the fish dies. This will also cure the whooping cough.

    Today----------------------

    Cables:

    To make cables sound better..... dip them in liquid nitrogen. This also works for vacuum tubes.

    USG [​IMG]




    LOL... That's some good stuff right there

    For me, I'm a bit of subjectivist and objectivist at the same time. In any hobby I take part in really. It's always better imo to look at things from different point of views.
     
  8. bigshot
    Very good. Thanks, Jude.

    My suggestion would be to just include the differentiation in the title of the forum... ie: Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (Objective) and Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (Subjective)

    See ya
    Steve
     
  9. monolith
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    Very good. Thanks, Jude.

    My suggestion would be to just include the differentiation in the title of the forum... ie: Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (Objective) and Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (Subjective)

    See ya
    Steve




    While that is the way it should be, what I believe is going to happen is that the current cable forum will stay the way it is (most probably with stricter moderation regarding discussion of reason), while the new forum will just be an objectivist forum with room to talk about everything to that effect when it comes to audio, rather than just an objectivist cable forum.
     
  10. bigshot
    That's fine too. We just quote from the thread in the main forum and copy/paste reply in the objective forum, adding a link to the objective thread in the original thread letting folks know that the topic (whether cables or SACD or jitter or whatever) is being split for discussion in the objective forum too. It'll involve some long distance quoting, but I guess we can all figure that out.

    See ya
    Steve
     
  11. Uncle Erik Contributor
    How about diving the two forums with one being listening impressions and the other being discussion. I think that would divide the people who want to discuss what they hear from those who want to debate. It would also tend to exclude people who don't own the products being discussed.
     
  12. Riordan Contributor
    thanks to the good efforts of many, the new forum's prospects look better than could have been hoped for.

    respect [​IMG]
     
  13. ast
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jude /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    .....
    Okay, so here's the deal: There will be an Objectivist Audio Forum (which is what it is tentatively named). It will not be a sub-forum of the cable forum, but on the same hierarchical level as the other equipment forums, as reasonably requested by some of you, including some of the Moderators in discussions with them.
    .......




    GREAT!!! Thanks Jude.

    This will set a precedence for all headphone forums in the world.[​IMG]
     
  14. mbriant
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigshot
    We just quote from the thread in the main forum and copy/paste reply in the objective forum, adding a link to the objective thread in the original thread letting folks know that the topic (whether cables or SACD or jitter or whatever) is being split for discussion in the objective forum too. It'll involve some long distance quoting, but I guess we can all figure that out.



    Exactly ! One thing to keep in mind is that the purpose of this whole exercise is to allow subjectivist discussion to continue without being continuously sidetracked and taken off topic, so any links to an objectivist counter-point discussion thread should be just that ... a link and nothing more. In fact, perhaps a single standard line such as "Counter-point discussion: (insert link here)" only, could be used whenever a related thread is started. However, since the whole reason we're introducing the new forum is to allow subjective discussion to proceed without derailment and interuption, I hope everyone understands we do not expect to see every second post in the discussion being a link to the same counter-point thread or a specific rebuttle post. We also expect the new forum and of course all forums to remain respectful of everyone.

    And of course, the new forum will be more than just rebuttle threads. I'm hoping to see discussion and links to scientific information, DBT tests and results, etc.

    Hopefully, once we get into the swing of things, members will be able to look at both side's thoughts and opinions and make up their own minds on this often contentious debate.
     
  15. digger945
    The open minded forum...for those who...want to share information and/or facts.
     
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