[bosiemoncrieff]

Sonarworks has given me the most dramatic improvements on piano music. 

 

[johnjen]

  Sonarworks has given me the most dramatic improvements on piano music. 

I know what you mean.
It seems somehow related to the increase in the dynamic impact and power that the strings do generate.
 
At least that was what I noticed.
 
JJ

 

[Rozenberg]

How do you guys feel about Sennheiser's choice to add more 2nd harmonic distortion to the bass on the HD800-S? Why couldn't they just change the driver a little or something to add more bass instead of adding distortion? I haven't heard the original HD800 to hear the difference between the two, but I just find it a poorly thought out thing to do, especially since Sennheiser is focused on sound quality over anything.

Probably because tweaking the driver itself would need more research and make an increase in price, whereas the current price increase of HD800S compared to HD800's MSRP is just because of the additional included balanced cable. I think the guys at Sennheiser know the tradeoff but still did what they did.

Well, do you think the 800S sounds good? What's the point of obsessing over measurements when you can still enjoy music with it? It's not like the 2nd harmonic is bothering you ears unless you're listening while looking at the graphs.

 

[fjrabon]

How do you guys feel about Sennheiser's choice to add more 2nd harmonic distortion to the bass on the HD800-S? Why couldn't they just change the driver a little or something to add more bass instead of adding distortion? I haven't heard the original HD800 to hear the difference between the two, but I just find it a poorly thought out thing to do, especially since Sennheiser is focused on sound quality over anything.

The choice wasn't solely to add more bass. There is a belief in audio that most speaker designers have that harmonic distortion should decrease smoothly as you go down the harmonic order. So, there should be more harmonic distortion in the 2nd harmonic than the 3rd, more in the 3rd than 4th, etc. With most solid state amps the HD800 actually has more harmonic distortion in the 3rd harmonic than the 2nd. Tube amps "fix" this.

Sennheiser's goal wasn't just to add more perceived bass, but to add more body to the tonality. More body is more or less synonymous with 2nd harmonic distortion.

However, I prefer to bring the 2nd harmonic distortion in via a tube rather than it being an irreversible characteristic of the headphone. As this allows me to control the precise amount and character with tube rolling. But if you're going to use a solid state amp the HD800S is probably better for most people.

 

[Arniesb]

How do you guys feel about Sennheiser's choice to add more 2nd harmonic distortion to the bass on the HD800-S? Why couldn't they just change the driver a little or something to add more bass instead of adding distortion? I haven't heard the original HD800 to hear the difference between the two, but I just find it a poorly thought out thing to do, especially since Sennheiser is focused on sound quality over anything.

There is no distortion what can be HEARD. Why none can't understand that decreasing high Frequencies affect speed, clarity of bass, details and whole balance of sound... Do You think it is possible to have HD800S everything, but with a HD800 bass characteristics? Some are talking like: super dupont doesn't affect bass like Sennheiser resonator. Well yeah! Cause its taming effect is not as noticable as Sennheiser resonator. You can pick any headphones and eq down high frequencies by like 6db and you will se how sound will be fuller and more forgiving, but slower with less definition everywhere.
Same with bass increase. Sound gonna be fuller, but slower with less detail. Thats why V Shape headphones exist!!! Cause lot of highs can make everything more speedier with more definition.

 

[Sorrodje]

@Arniesb : Go listen to a Stax SR007 and come back here to give impressions. It's the first exemple that come in my mind of a warm/dark yet fast (faster than a HD800)  headphone that demonstrates the perceived speed and tonal balance are not that easy to correlate. IMO, IME , YMMV 

 

[Arniesb]

@Arniesb
 : Go llisten to a Stax SR007 and come back here to give impressions. It's the first exemple that come in my mind of a warm/dark yet fast (faster than a HD800)  headphone that demonstrate perceived speed and tonal balance are not that easy to correlate. IMO, IME , YMMV 

I wasnt saying that all warm headphones is slow. I was sayin that SAME headphones, but with warmer tuning will be slower with less definition... Just look at T1.2 and HD800S. Both are warmer than their predecessors, but also a bit slower and with less definition.

 

[Sorrodje]

I don"t know the Beyer T1.2 but i had the pleasure to own the HD800S and the HD800 (stock and modded) and I never felt the HD800S was slower. Considering I measured, heard and reviewed the HD800SD before Tyll , i hadn't been influenced by his own conclusion about distorsion when I wrote my review . My conclusion was I heard some small differences and mainly the very positive change in tonality thks to the tamed 6khz peak and resonnance . the only downside I heard was a slight lack of instrument separation during complex movements in orchestral music. I never heard that much warmth or lack of definition to be honest. Maybe a tad more extension .
 
I won't change what i wrote even if now it seems everybody find the HD800S distorsion unacceptable. I'm maybe deaf but at least I'm honestly deaf. 

 

[Arniesb]

I don"t know the Beyer T1.2 but i had the pleasure to own the HD800S and the HD800 (stock and modded) and I never felt the HD800S was slower. Considering I measured, heard and reviewed the HD800SD before Tyll , i hadn't been influenced by his own conclusion about distorsion when I wrote my review . My conclusion was I heard some small differences and mainly the very positive change in tonality thks to the tamed 6khz peak and resonnance . the only downside I heard was a slight lack of instrument separation during complex movements in orchestral music. I never heard that much warmth or lack of definition to be honest. Maybe a tad more extension .

I won't change what i wrote even if now it seems everybody find the HD800S distorsion unacceptable. I'm maybe deaf but at least I'm honestly deaf. 

I wasnt saying HD800S lack definition, just sayin HD800 have a touch more definition. HD800S is a touch fuller and HD800 is a touch thinner. Everybody knows that thinner is faster if headphones is same. I just wanna say that there is nothing perfect. I dont care if one have more not noticable by ear distortion honestly. Just my opinion.

 

[fjrabon]

There is no distortion what can be HEARD. Why none can't understand that decreasing high Frequencies affect speed, clarity of bass, details and whole balance of sound... Do You think it is possible to have HD800S everything, but with a HD800 bass characteristics? Some are talking like: super dupont doesn't affect bass like Sennheiser resonator. Well yeah! Cause its taming effect is not as noticable as Sennheiser resonator. You can pick any headphones and eq down high frequencies by like 6db and you will se how sound will be fuller and more forgiving, but slower with less definition everywhere.
Same with bass increase. Sound gonna be fuller, but slower with less detail. Thats why V Shape headphones exist!!! Cause lot of highs can make everything more speedier with more definition.

Sure, high frequencies create a perception of detail and speed. But you can also get there the good old fashioned way of clean impulse response, good driver matching, low noise and low yet asymptotic decrease of harmonic distortion.

Also, the Sennheiser resonator isn't what changed the bass. Sennheiser changed the mass distribution of the ring cone to produce more 2nd harmonic distortion.

There was two perceived issues with the HD800: 1) resonance st 6kHz and 2) more 3rd and 4th harmonic distortion than 2nd. The first issue was solved with the resonator, the 2nd issue with a minor shift in the geometry and mass of the ring radiator.

 

[fjrabon]

I don"t know the Beyer T1.2 but i had the pleasure to own the HD800S and the HD800 (stock and modded) and I never felt the HD800S was slower. Considering I measured, heard and reviewed the HD800SD before Tyll , i hadn't been influenced by his own conclusion about distorsion when I wrote my review . My conclusion was I heard some small differences and mainly the very positive change in tonality thks to the tamed 6khz peak and resonnance . the only downside I heard was a slight lack of instrument separation during complex movements in orchestral music. I never heard that much warmth or lack of definition to be honest. Maybe a tad more extension .

I won't change what i wrote even if now it seems everybody find the HD800S distorsion unacceptable. I'm maybe deaf but at least I'm honestly deaf. 

I don't think you're deaf at all. The increased distortion actually allows the HD800 to have a THD curve more like speakers in a well treated room.

People think of distortion like it's some crackling, boomy, fuzzy sound. 2nd harmonic distortion is merely a slight change to the tonality.

You could, in fact take away the term "distortion" and understand it better. Every note you hear in natural music is comprised of a fundamental and harmonics, which are sympathetic ringings of harmonically related tones. "Fuller" sounding instruments like a cello, for example, have more 2nd harmonic in their tonality than do thinner instruments, like a harpsichord, which has more harmonic distortion in the third harmonic. Nobody talks about how they can't stand the sound of harmonic distortion in a cello.

Speaker makers have long known, and strived for a harmonic profile where harmonic distortion decreases as you go from one harmonic to the next. This is well known, and considered a fundamental quality of a good sounding speaker system in a well treated room.

For whatever reason, this is often forgotten by headphone makers. Headphone makers seem to strive for the absolute lowest harmonic distortion possible, probably so they can quote an impressively low THD number. And low THD is good, if you could lower the distortion in ***every*** harmonic by half, you would almost always have a clearer headphone, with great tonality. . However it is not so good when it throws the relative amounts between the harmonics out of whack. And since the 2nd harmonic has the most distortion, they tend to go after it most. You can have a drastically lower amount of THD if you cut out 2nd harmonic distortion. But it will come at the expense of making the headphone sound brittle and lacking body. This is what happened to the HD800. It actually had so little distortion in the 2nd harmonic that it seemed to lack body. This is why it seemed to sound so great with tube amps, as tube amps have a good bit of 2nd harmonic distortion, but very little higher order harmonic distortion.

My issue with the HD800S is that it's like Sennheiser picked your tube for you. The HD800 allowed you to dial in the exact amount of 2nd harmonic distortion you wanted with the right tube. The HD800s more or less demands a very low amount added, or it can get bloated. It cuts down your options when tube rolling, if not outright demanding a solid state amp. (Solid state amps tend to have relatively equal amounts of distortion in the first through fifth harmonics, this also isn't true of all solid state amps, but is a generalization ). However, on the right amp, the HD800S is going to sound wonderful. To my ears, if you take a HD800 and a HD800S and plug them both into a high end solid state amp and DAC the HD800S sound better. Easily. And that was its purpose. It's not for us extreme people who will tailor an entire system for ultimate synergy. It's for the people who just want to plug it into an amp and go.

 

[Arniesb]

Sure, high frequencies create a perception of detail and speed. But you can also get there the good old fashioned way of clean impulse response, good driver matching, low noise and low yet asymptotic decrease of harmonic distortion.

Also, the Sennheiser resonator isn't what changed the bass. Sennheiser changed the mass distribution of the ring cone to produce more 2nd harmonic distortion.

There was two perceived issues with the HD800: 1) resonance st 6kHz and 2) more 3rd and 4th harmonic distortion than 2nd. The first issue was solved with the resonator, the 2nd issue with a minor shift in the geometry and mass of the ring radiator.

Sennheiser changed the mass distribution of the ring cone to produce more 2nd harmonic distortion. Didnt heard about this change. Thanks for making it more clear. Thats explain more than usual drop in bass characteristics like damping can do.

 

[Arniesb]

I don't think you're deaf at all. The increased distortion actually allows the HD800 to have a THD curve more like speakers in a well treated room.

People think of distortion like it's some crackling, boomy, fuzzy sound. 2nd harmonic distortion is merely a slight change to the tonality.

You could, in fact take away the term "distortion" and understand it better. Every note you hear in natural music is comprised of a fundamental and harmonics, which are sympathetic ringings of harmonically related tones. "Fuller" sounding instruments like a cello, for example, have more 2nd harmonic in their tonality than do thinner instruments, like a harpsichord, which has more harmonic distortion in the third harmonic. Nobody talks about how they can't stand the sound of harmonic distortion in a cello.

Speaker makers have long known, and strived for a harmonic profile where harmonic distortion decreases as you go from one harmonic to the next. This is well known, and considered a fundamental quality of a good sounding speaker system in a well treated room.

For whatever reason, this is often forgotten by headphone makers. Headphone makers seem to strive for the absolute lowest harmonic distortion possible, probably so they can quote an impressively low THD number. And low THD is good, if you could lower the distortion in ***every*** harmonic by half, you would almost always have a clearer headphone, with great tonality. . However it is not so good when it throws the relative amounts between the harmonics out of whack. And since the 2nd harmonic has the most distortion, they tend to go after it most. You can have a drastically lower amount of THD if you cut out 2nd harmonic distortion. But it will come at the expense of making the headphone sound brittle and lacking body. This is what happened to the HD800. It actually had so little distortion in the 2nd harmonic that it seemed to lack body. This is why it seemed to sound so great with tube amps, as tube amps have a good bit of 2nd harmonic distortion, but very little higher order harmonic distortion.

My issue with the HD800S is that it's like Sennheiser picked your tube for you. The HD800 allowed you to dial in the exact amount of 2nd harmonic distortion you wanted with the right tube. The HD800s more or less demands a very low amount added, or it can get bloated. It cuts down your options when tube rolling, if not outright demanding a solid state amp. (Solid state amps tend to have relatively equal amounts of distortion in the first through fifth harmonics, this also isn't true of all solid state amps, but is a generalization ). However, on the right amp, the HD800S is going to sound wonderful. To my ears, if you take a HD800 and a HD800S and plug them both into a high end solid state amp and DAC the HD800S sound better. Easily. And that was its purpose. It's not for us extreme people who will tailor an entire system for ultimate synergy. It's for the people who just want to plug it into an amp and go.

One of the best post i ever read!!! Your knowledge is among the best! Thats why i buyed HD800S I want easier life lol. Well HD800 still whould be nice to play with eq

 

[FLTWS]

One of the best post i ever read!!! Your knowledge is among the best! Thats why i buyed HD800S I want easier life lol. Well HD800 still whould be nice to play with eq

 
Absolutely agree with you on that, first time I've read a written description of what I actually heard auditioning the two side by side. And why I'll probably add the S to my current stable at some point in the near future and I will retain the 800. I've had plenty of in-home hours with my collection of metal boxes on all the top contenders (except the Stax which I've owned in the past) I'm interested in, except the Utopia, which I am expecting next month for evaluation.

 

[Sorrodje]

To my ears, if you take a HD800 and a HD800S and plug them both into a high end solid state amp and DAC the HD800S sound better. Easily. And that was its purpose. It's not for us extreme people who will tailor an entire system for ultimate synergy. It's for the people who just want to plug it into an amp and go.

 
Likely indeed.
 
And it's exactly what I experienced with the modded HD800 as well. During Last year I lived happily with a Krell KSA5 DIY and it's the first time I can live with a Solid State amplifier for my 2 or 3 hours of daily listening sessions. Nevertheless the modded HD800 does not exhibit the same Distorsion "enhancement" than the HD800S. So I still think the change of tonality induced by the tamed 6khz of the HD800S matters more than the increased distorsion.  
 
Thks for your interesting explanations about the use of 2nd Harmonic Distorsion though.