[ericfarrell85]

this is what i was trying to achieve with the sennheiser hd800 . i believe im now satisfied with my set up and i can rest for now.
oppo 103 flac/hi res files --> nad m51 --> decware csp3 ---> alo studio six ---> norne draug2 ---> sennheiser hd800

Interesting that you threw the Decware Pre in the chain. I've struggled with the HD800 for a couple of years now, but recently swapped a Mullard ECC35 for a Sophia Electric 6sl7 in my BA and for added warmth decided to see how my CSP2+ would play as pre in the chain. Something is just awfully right about this setup now.

It now looks like BPT 3.5+> Offramp 5 (i2s)> M7 > CSP2+ > ECBA.

Waiting for my Lampi to be fixed, but not missing much with this setup in place

 

[preproman]

Interesting that you threw the Decware Pre in the chain. I've struggled with the HD800 for a couple of years now, but recently swapped a Mullard ECC35 for a Sophia Electric 6sl7 in my BA and for added warmth decided to see how my CSP2+ would play as pre in the chain. Something is just awfully right about this setup now.

It now looks like BPT 3.5+> Offramp 5 (i2s)> M7 > CSP2+ > ECBA.

Waiting for my Lampi to be fixed, but not missing much with this setup in place

 
E,
 
So why the CSP2+?      OR5 --> M7 --> ECBA is inferior?

 

[ericfarrell85]

D,
 
Hard to say if it's the CSP2+ or the tube swap (a simultaneous change). The drastic difference leads me to believe that it cannot be a change resulting from the driver tube (then again I've always underestimated tube influence). It should also be noted that I've always liked the CSP2+ > HD800 combo, being the only amp (that I own) that even remotely makes the HD800 an intimate listen. 
 
I've always wondered why more people don't play with preamps in their chain. The one other HD800 setup I loved was the Zana Deux > Beta 22 setup. Perhaps there is something to this pre addition? In the coming week I'll try the Zana > BA, BA > Zana, and hopefully then will be able to say with some certainty whether preamps play a notable role with the HD800. As it stands now, the HD800 gets out of the way nearly as well as the SR009. With the previous Mullard (no pre) in place the HD800 was both dull and strident, so a killer change to say it plain. 

 

[skeptic]

 
I've always wondered why more people don't play with preamps in their chain... 

 
I think the general idea is that adding more gain stages adds more noise/coloration/distortion, and there is no need given the low power required by most headphones.  Cathode followers are an exception to this rule where you are really using the second stage to lower ouput impedance in liue of building around output transformers.  The best hp tube amps, imo, sound great with hd800 and pass the signal through a single gain stage tube.  95% of the circuit is devoted to providing the gain stage tube on each channel with the exact regulated voltage and constant current necessary to sound as good as possible.  Hello mainline and L-2, or for the budget minded, torpedo.
 
When you talk about feeding a zd into a b22...why not just buy a good hybrid?

 

[screwdriver]

The csp2+ or csp3 as pre amp with the studio six is so much better than the studio six alone, it's like all s6 on steroids.

 

[skeptic]

I would find it a bit dispiriting if I felt I needed a ~$2k amp in front of my ~$4k amp to make the latter sound better.  I recall your s6 is now up for sale?

 

[froger]

D,

Hard to say if it's the CSP2+ or the tube swap (a simultaneous change). The drastic difference leads me to believe that it cannot be a change resulting from the driver tube (then again I've always underestimated tube influence). It should also be noted that I've always liked the CSP2+ > HD800 combo, being the only amp (that I own) that even remotely makes the HD800 an intimate listen. 

I've always wondered why more people don't play with preamps in their chain. The one other HD800 setup I loved was the Zana Deux > Beta 22 setup. Perhaps there is something to this pre addition? In the coming week I'll try the Zana > BA, BA > Zana, and hopefully then will be able to say with some certainty whether preamps play a notable role with the HD800. As it stands now, the HD800 gets out of the way nearly as well as the SR009. With the previous Mullard (no pre) in place the HD800 was both dull and strident, so a killer change to say it plain. 

I love having my AMR DP-777 as a pre-amp in my chain too. I thought I must be crazy swapping my DP-777 as the DAC with a China-made LKS DAC, but I chose my ears over my head in this case. And after modding the LKS DAC with femto clock, my chain has never sounded this realistic and musical. All these with HD800 of course

 

[ericfarrell85]

I think the general idea is that adding more gain stages adds more noise/coloration/distortion, and there is no need given the low power required by most headphones.  Cathode followers are an exception to this rule where you are really using the second stage to lower ouput impedance in liue of building around output transformers.  The best hp tube amps, imo, sound great with hd800 and pass the signal through a single gain stage tube.  95% of the circuit is devoted to providing the gain stage tube on each channel with the exact regulated voltage and constant current necessary to sound as good as possible.  Hello mainline and L-2, or for the budget minded, torpedo.

When you talk about feeding a zd into a b22...why not just buy a good hybrid?

While generally I agree with you that stacking a preamp on a headphone amp is a waste (hell, headphones can generally be driven by a single opamp). However, the HD800 has been, in my experience, a difficult cat to skin and has required (for me -- see subjective) lots of tuning. Be it adding various harmonic distortion, frequency emphasis: this added coloration can be and has been pleasant. I get the reverse argument, with headphones power demands are substantially lower, sensitivity is much higher and headphones are for the most part full-range drivers, so it's simpler than speaker requirements (ideal schemes requiring one amp per channel, crossover, multi-amp schemes). Still, I've heard on more than one occasion a preamp enlivening an otherwise dull and flat presentation. With the HD800's separates seem to give a little something special. At the very least it's worth investigating I think.

 

[screwdriver]

  I would find it a bit dispiriting if I felt I needed a ~$2k amp in front of my ~$4k amp to make the latter sound better.  I recall your s6 is now up for sale?

i happen to have the csp decware from my speaker set up and i tried it as a pre amp with the alo and it just sounds incredible .
im trying to sell my gear - the alo s6 , then the hd800 later on so i can go hifiman he-6  to be powered by a speaker set up . i wanna simplify my systm . i have the speaker set up and headphone set up - a lot of money tied up - i just wanna have one set up - the speaker set up that can get the he-6 to great levels.

 

[rgs9200m]

Just wanted to report that the Sennheiser balanced cable I just got for the HD800 improves things. The sound is bigger, wider, more open, and a touch more mellow.
 
edit: added the word "a"; and this sounds more awkwardly phrased the more I read it... 

 

[koiloco]

  Just wanted to report that the Sennheiser balanced cable I just got for the HD800 improves things. The sound is bigger, wider, more open, and touch more mellow.

Glad to hear the cable did all that for you.  Enjoy...

 

[preproman]

  Glad to hear the cable did all that for you.  Enjoy...

 
Ha ha ha  

 

[zilch0md]

I just ordered a Metrum Acoustics Octave MkII.

If the following chain doesn't satisfy my quest for a less fatiguing HD800, I'll call it quits and sell it (maybe).

FiiO X5 coaxial out > Octave > OPPO HA-1 balanced out > unmodified HD800

Mike

 

[Pepper]

   
Didn't you have the ODAC/O2 combo? Why are you then using the DAC1 when they measure the same?
 
 
 
 
...
 
 
Nah I'm just kidding with you!

 I went from the O2 combo to DAC1 myself! Then I got a HD800. I thought like you that I was done for good (like the good and scientific objectivist that I was!) Then I LOL'd at the Vali hype that was going on. "They are so st000pid, omg tubes measure badder then my equipment." Well then I was gonna prove them wrong, so I ordered the Vali and was going to send it back the day after I got it! "OMG it has ringing! This thing is BAD and I should feel bad for even trying to listening to it!"
 
I was already getting the package to send it back when I started listening to it. I wish I could say that I had an ephiphany, but I didn't. What I did however, was sitting up all night listening to all my music, and couldn't get enough. And I didn't understand. Then I tried AB blind testing with the DAC1 HP out, with help from a friend. I could tell them from eachother every time, and each time I preferred the Vali. I didn't know right there why that was, but I can tell you now: it was because the Vali reproduced music in a more accurate and natural way. I am not good with words about how things sound. But I am a drummer, and I know how a kickdrum or floor toms should sound in real life. The Vali got that more right then the HP out from DAC1. Easy as that.
 
Long story short, I gave up my absolute objectivism and instead now embrace sceptisism. I am starting to build up trust against some ears, and while that can change over time the best way to find out if you like something is to listen to stuff yourself.
I am really happy now with my rig, and you should be to! The real star of the show is still the HD800. And even if it can sound different depending on what gear used, it's still sound like a HD800. 
 
I dare you to try the Vali. It's cheap and you can send it back. The only real downside is that you might like it. 

 

 
I've amped my HD800s with an Objective2. Thought that's all there was to sound.
 
Then I amped it with a vintage amp (which I still think is great), and the sound was a lot more pleasant to listen to. I listened for maybe at least 10 hours that day. But here, there was definitely detail loss, and there was obvious "distortion" with the signal.
 
Then I amped my HD800s with a Bryston BHA-1, and it just sounded "Hi-Fi" right away. Each note was so controlled and articulate, and there was this slight softness to it, like the softness you get when a nice, felted hammer in a piano strikes the string. The O2 does NOT go well with the HD800s at all; it sounds extremely boring, dull, and there is absolutely no depth to the sound. The soundstage is as wide as a piece of paper, and imaging virtually non-existent. Is that *really* how it was originally recorded? The O2 also sounded a little gritty and grainy, whereas the BHA-1 is smooth as silk. I wonder what metric accounts for that.
 
Maybe all of these are "distortion" and I like the sound of distortion. Or, maybe the metrics used to measure the O2 are not the correct criteria when it comes to what makes a good amp. I want to believe that an amp is just increasing the amplitude of the signal. But if that's what the O2 does, why does it obviously not sound right. I guarantee you the recording engineers would say that the sound coming out of my BHA-1 is truer to the sound they intended than what results from the O2.

 

[BleaK]

   
Maybe all of these are "distortion" and I like the sound of distortion. Or, maybe the metrics used to measure the O2 are not the correct criteria when it comes to what makes a good amp. I want to believe that an amp is just increasing the amplitude of the signal. But if that's what the O2 does, why does it obviously not sound right. I guarantee you the recording engineers would say that the sound coming out of my BHA-1 is truer to the sound they intended than what results from the O2.

 
That's what most of us in this hobby has come to realize. There are some thing in audio which we cannot measure yet. Take the Violectric amps for example. They are built out of measurements as well like the Objective2. They measure both "beyond what our ear can hear". So in theory they should sound alike. But those who have heard them both side by side can say that this is not the case. This is were the hardcore objectionist have a problem to explain where the differences in sound can come from. Well, some might say they don't hear the difference. But then they should be happy with their Objective2 anyways.