The (new) HD800 Impressions Thread
Feb 8, 2015 at 7:33 AM Post #16,741 of 29,013
Question for other owners: how loud approximately do you listen to your HD800? I was curious, since I measured my own listening level with a SPL meter and realized I listen to music anywhere from 57-74 dB levels, depending on the track. All measured in a very quiet room with no other background noise. 30dB background measurement. Anything above 80dB was unbearable for me and would give me a headache after 10 seconds. Unsurprisingly, no distortion of any sort at higher volumes of course.

Chain: Custom PC - > Concero HD - > Valhalla 2 - > HD800.

Also, I am surprised as to how easily and loudly my HTC One M8 can drive the HD800.

I would think many will listen to levels above 90dB.
Recording engineers listen in 80-90dB range.
Also spl measurements are not trivial to take, there are standards and specialised setups for different scenarios. Also what does this nr represent on a time scale, RMS, short term, peak?
 
My guess is i am listening anywhere around 60-110dB range. Think of live concerts, it is ~100dB loud. Sometimes more.
HD800 will go even higher though, i can feel my ears move 
tongue.gif
, but that is seriously fatiguing to my ears.
 
Food for thought: at 96dB loudness can one get full 16bit resolution. Sure on a real life recording through a real life dac, more like 12bits are possible, so 72dB dynamic range on top of noise. 
But i feel it is sometimes necessary to go over 70dB to hear everything the recording offers.
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 8:33 AM Post #16,742 of 29,013
I would think many will listen to levels above 90dB.
Recording engineers listen in 80-90dB range.
My guess is i am listening anywhere around 60-110dB range. Think of live concerts, it is ~100dB loud. Sometimes more.


You are referring to rock & pop concerts. Jazz & classical concerts are not so loud, although even an un-amplified orchestra can get quite loud in loud passages.

Older rock & pop recordings had dynamic range. They went back and forth between loud and not so loud. Now everything on CD is compressed to be always loud. this gives the ears no break. This causes fatigue. This causes ear damage much more quickly. Be careful with your ears.
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 9:05 AM Post #16,743 of 29,013
 
This begs the question, does a DAC such as Octave or M51 leave one wanting a better front end for the HD800 or will it satisfy so that one can spend one's time/money pursuing great music?  And if this level DAC is not an end point, is a PWD or Yggdrasil or Hex, or BADA or QB-9 an end point, or does it never end? 

 
End point or not is purely a matter of personal Choice.
 
The Mertrum Octave is  a great dac for the HD800. But I'm selling mine because I feel it's not my end point and I want to see if the grasse is greener elsewhere. I think I'm sold though : R2R dacs have my preference . I'll wait to save money and purchase the Yggy. I hope this dac to bring on the table what I miss with the Octave : more transparency and resolution. 
 
Fortunately , My Beresford Caïman mkII is at least as good as the Octave. with it, I can keep the analog tone , I lose the thick and bodied timbres and textures but I gain some resolution . With the Yggy I hope to eat the cake ( R2R bodied sound) and keep it ( resolution and transparency).
 
I purchased a Meier DACCORD too. I hope this is a step up from the Caïman . :)
 
My DAC quest is not over.
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 9:49 AM Post #16,744 of 29,013
Your central auditory nervous system can PERCEIVE certain signals/stimulus to be fatiguing either based on frequency and amplitude relationship or from signal masking where your nervous system is working extra hard to get the relevant material from the signal. This is where jitter, FR, impulse response all play a part in fatigue.

Given this information our "CANS" (Is that a coincidence that's what these first letter spell; or did you plan that ?) appear to have
the ability to go into various modes of overdrive simply from the fact they are trying to react to an "overabundance" of "direct"or "closely
patterned like sounds" rather than "random sound patterns"(which it can discard aimost immediately as a "1 & done" processing situations).
 
Being Audiophiles that's an unacceptable proposition as we're often way more concerned with "how" something may sound than what it"is" that we're actually listening to !
 
The truth is we're setting ourselves up for "fatigue" through our over attentiveness to what we're listening to by how we're listening to it
 
The next time you talk with your "non Audio nut" freinds see how often they mention various "SQ" features of what they've listened to
 
I guess we have to learn to treat our "CANS" like the Kit-Kat comercial a bit more often (Gimme a break...Gimme a break...etc !)
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 10:26 AM Post #16,745 of 29,013
This was really enjoyable reading, John!
 
Quote:
 
 
Um, that may or may not be the ‘source’’ of the pinched width of the sound stage.
 
My SAA modded 800's have no shelf liner, creatology foam, felt, nor inner covers, and the spatial cues are pinpoint precise and expansive, where the recording calls for such.
 
I suspect there are 'other' influences at play.
 
But what I do notice as a result of all of these (Anax & SAA) mods, is a major reduction in LFF (Listener Fatigue Factor), which 'allows' me to turn up the DRC (Dynamic Range Control, aka, the volume control), to 'higher' levels before I reach 'too much' and don't wish to go any higher, mostly due to the (lack of) ‘comfort' level of the SPL (Sound Pressure Level).  
When the LFF is improved, by whatever means, the SQ raises accordingly.  
I hear this as an increase in the degree of being ‘in focus’, for the entire acoustic presentation.  
And interestingly, as the LFF is improved, this 'additional' degree of being ‘in focus’ remains quite evident, even when the volume is turned down.
 
What this allows is a greater dynamic range in the playback of the music, which in turn increases all of the subtle cues (spatiality, and all the other related harmonics associated to each instrument/voice), not to mention better bass due to our hearing's natural frequency gain of the low end, as the overall SPL is raised.  
 
And there seems to be another 'mechanism' at play as well.
As the 'choke points' in the entire system are ameliorated, the overall 'get out of its own way' factor 'allows' more of the original signal to arrive at the transducers, in the first place.
And
As we reduce the transducers ‘unwanted/undesirable’ acoustic 'traits', this can also 'allow' more of the actual signal to be heard, because these ‘bad’ traits no longer act as a 'mask', which means the need for further masking the mask, can become both unnecessary to begin with, and unwanted.
 
But as we all know improvements to the transducer (speakers, headphones) are usually most effective.
And these types of mods, such as adding masking with foam/felt, experimental removal of 'extra' parts (grills, etc), have been popular forever.  
And further it is also commonly held that these sorts of improvements can sometimes be quite significant, as is the case before us.
So it can be a challenge for us DIY’rs to figure out the ‘best’ balance between different mods.
 
Which has lead me to the understanding that as further 'choke points' are removed from the system, it is able to resolve to even greater degrees of inner definition, and be able to deliver 'more' of each instrument/voice, with a greater sense of acoustic 'realness' as the level of precision and resolution is increased.
 
That's another thing I’ve noticed, namely, as our systems become more and more precise and resolving, it becomes all to easy to assign causation of the undesirable sonic traits, to an incorrect originating source of the 'irritation'.
But not always…  
Like, with some 800's that have a 'resonant?' peak in the ≈ 5-8KHz region.
Or (fill in your favorite example here)…
 
But with any reduction of the causes of LFF, the overall sound level seems to lower at the same time that the DRC has been raised.  Which is rather curious, if you think about it. (I raise the DRC and the volume goes down????)   
atsmile.gif

Because now, to reach the same level of LFF as before the last improvement of LFF, the DRC needs to be increased, even further… 
 
It sounds like the acoustic presentation seems to present less ‘energy’ (SPL). And due to the reduction of the causative factors of LFF and other choke points, the available acoustic energy seems more tightly ‘bound’ to its original ‘parent’/source. 
 
Which points back to the increase in the Dynamic Range, because while there is less ‘smeared’ acoustic energy (since more of it is ‘bound’ to its acoustic source), the amount of silence between individual notes for each instrument/voice/source of acoustic energy, has increased.  And so there is a greater amount of time where less acoustic energy is being generated, and we can perceive this as lower SPL. 
 
IOW, when the amount of available acoustic energy is aligned and associated more precisely and accurately with its original source, there is more complete coupling of the original sonic signal to its re-created acoustical cousin, which also means there is less acoustic energy where it doesn’t belong.
 
Which is another way of saying the sound level seems to drop due to the reduction of LFF, as the entire system has gotten ‘out of it’s own way’, all the more.
 
And, "You don't know what you've got til it's gone !" indeed!  :thumb
 
 
JJ
 

 
It reminds me of comments made by knowwhatImean, in this post to the Metrum Aurix thread:
 
  The HD800 has always appeared pretty "Enigmatic" in terms of it Sensitivity Rating to me. The problem that I run into is they really don"t display the "less aggressive full tonality" until I've raised my volume level slightly higher than I prefer to listen at. This tonality seems to suddenly just "pop" into place. As great as they sound when I reach that very narrow window of volume, I can be certain I will be ear fatigued at some point when I'm done listening (As I am at this moment).
 
[snip]

 
Mike
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 10:27 AM Post #16,746 of 29,013
Thought I would chime in on the thread since I've owned my HD800 (earlier serial, No.4xxx).  I finally found a configuration that I'm happy with.  Everything else I had tried before left me looking for something else or expecting more.  My experience with Sabre chips left me almost never enjoying my headphones.  So I ended up with a Wolfson WM8741 dac by Audio-GD.  This is just forgiving enough where I can still enjoy my streaming without being forced to move down to a more forgiving headphone in my arsenal.
 
But to the reason for my post...  I'm curious if anyone has played around with positioning of the HD800 relative to the ear.  Due to the massive cups, there's quite a bit of play in where one can position the cans.   I find that depending on where I place the driver relative to my ear canal, the sound changes quite dramatically.  I'm sure the topic has been discussed, I know it has with many other headphones, but for me it's never been such a change in sound stage and frequency.
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 10:36 AM Post #16,748 of 29,013
  Thought I would chime in on the thread since I've owned my HD800 (earlier serial, No.4xxx).  I finally found a configuration that I'm happy with.  Everything else I had tried before left me looking for something else or expecting more.  My experience with Sabre chips left me almost never enjoying my headphones.  So I ended up with a Wolfson WM8741 dac by Audio-GD.  This is just forgiving enough where I can still enjoy my streaming without being forced to move down to a more forgiving headphone in my arsenal.
 
But to the reason for my post...  I'm curious if anyone has played around with positioning of the HD800 relative to the ear.  Due to the massive cups, there's quite a bit of play in where one can position the cans.   I find that depending on where I place the driver relative to my ear canal, the sound changes quite dramatically.  I'm sure the topic has been discussed, I know it has with many other headphones, but for me it's never been such a change in sound stage and frequency.

 
Great question!  I've been meaning to post for some time now, but thought it perhaps too unique to my ears, that I prefer to put the HD800 low on my head, with my ears at the top of the cups - and with the cups set as far forward on my head as possible, too.  So, low and forward.
 
Mike
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 11:11 AM Post #16,750 of 29,013
I have them centered vertically and forward horizontally.  The headband is also centered fore and aft on the top of my head (this controls the rotation of the cups).
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 11:15 AM Post #16,751 of 29,013
  Given this information our "CANS" (Is that a coincidence that's what these first letter spell; or did you plan that ?) appear to have
the ability to go into various modes of overdrive simply from the fact they are trying to react to an "overabundance" of "direct"or "closely
patterned like sounds" rather than "random sound patterns"(which it can discard aimost immediately as a "1 & done" processing situations).
 
Being Audiophiles that's an unacceptable proposition as we're often way more concerned with "how" something may sound than what it"is" that we're actually listening to !
 
The truth is we're setting ourselves up for "fatigue" through our over attentiveness to what we're listening to by how we're listening to it
 
The next time you talk with your "non Audio nut" freinds see how often they mention various "SQ" features of what they've listened to
 
I guess we have to learn to treat our "CANS" like the Kit-Kat comercial a bit more often (Gimme a break...Gimme a break...etc !)


LOL it's either CNS or CANS. I much prefer CANS.
wink.gif

 
Yeah you pretty much described it:
- excess energy at a particular frequency can cause a temporary or permanent hearing loss. Like when you go to a concert but are still far away from the speakers or listen to headphones loudly...you'll get temporary hearing loss because your micro cilia (hair cells) are over fried and so don't vibrate in response to the SPL....kinda like a decrease in sensitivity. If it's a temporary loss, your own cochlea's FR changes for awhile but it will recover after some rest. The hair cells corresponding to high frequencies are typically the first to get fatigued/damaged in practical use. 
 
CANS - this is a lot harder to study. There's pretty much three ways to study this phenomena:
 
1) Pure sound analysis - Fully objective study. Here you measure things like auditory masking, phase difference, amplitude vs Frequency (FR), impulse response...auditory masking works differently varying frequency and how it responds to time intervals - you have less of a window with high frequencies to mess things up. With low frequencies, it's a bit less of a problem.
 
2) You get people to listen to stuff and keep a track of what they are listening to and all the objective measurement. Next you simply ask them for their experience
 
3) Measure brain activity in the CANS and areas corresponding with it as people listen to music. Try to figure out what's what and get some kind of a model going. Like is there an increase in brain activity responsible for interpreting when the music is a bit 'blurry'? Does the brain get fatigued in a particular order?
 
4) Somehow get live feed of how the ear cells are responding and if they drop their response.
 
 
That's all I am going to say about that on this thread. It's more suitable for the sound science forum, I highly doubt people care about this on the HD800 thread.
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 11:49 AM Post #16,752 of 29,013
Thanks everyone for responding. I sometimes need to reaffirm that I'm not going crazy and just hearing things.

I'm certain there's a sweet spot where the sound is more vocal and mid centric, and another spot where soundstage and realism are spot on.

I picked up the remastered Zeppelin II album, and just re-fell in love with my HD800s. So much that I gave then a good ol' q-tip cleaning!
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 12:21 PM Post #16,753 of 29,013
That was my thought also, this being the " The HD800 Impression Thread", but decided that as long as I included some
"levity" with what I was saying it wouldn't draw too much criticism !
 
The "ironies" of scientific explanation have built in natural humor if we take a more humanistic view of it. I'm all in if & when they
start a "Science of the Discovery of Obviousness from Life Experiences" forum
 
So to keep the spirit of the thread current: Does anyone who uses the Ragnarok with their HD800 think it has sufficient enough
capability to also use as an amp to power a pair of Magneplanar 2.7 QR loudspeakers (only to modest levels of course) ?
 
thanks
-steve
 
Feb 8, 2015 at 12:32 PM Post #16,754 of 29,013
That was my thought also, this being the " The HD800 Impression Thread", but decided that as long as I included some
"levity" with what I was saying it wouldn't draw too much criticism !

The "ironies" of scientific explanation have built in natural humor if we take a more humanistic view of it. I'm all in if & when they
start a "Science of the Discovery of Obviousness from Life Experiences" forum

So to keep the spirit of the thread current: Does anyone who uses the Ragnarok with their HD800 think it has sufficient enough
capability to also use as an amp to power a pair of Magneplanar 2.7 QR loudspeakers (only to modest levels of course) ?

thanks
-steve


I can't comment on the specific speaker you have mentioned, but in a recent compassion and testing I did with a variety of amps for my HD800, the Ragnarok drove my HD800 better than any of the other amps. Second place was Auralic Taurus MKII.

It also drove my Triton One floorstanding speakers as well as any of my receivers.

Unfortunately, I don't own either of the two amps, since money isn't as readily available as it was years ago lol... But I'm thinking about some house cleaning and selling some speakers and lower end headphones and equipment to fund my headphones hobby. Been eyeing the Auralic Vega and either the Ragnarok or the Taurus MKII for a few months now :D
 

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