The Nameless Guide To PC Gaming Audio (with binaural headphone surround sound)
Jun 17, 2016 at 11:08 AM Post #3,556 of 4,136
  It is not "incompetence". X-Fi MB3 is designed to only work with specific on-board audio hardware.

 
X-Fi MB3's function is completely unrelated to the on-board audio. It should work with any sound device independently.
 
The following post by Corundum explains it perfectly:
Originally Posted by Corundum /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
It's not that Creative is incompetent because MB3 is incompatible with stereo devices, it's perfectly capable of working with them.  It's that your media/game will not send surround sound information if you tell it that your playback device is stereo.  What Creative could have done is provide a virtual playback device with their MB3 software that mimics a surround sound playback device.

 
 
 
  Sorry. I am feeling REALLY dense. Can we just take one step back for me please. 
I want virtual surround sound for my games through my 2.0 headphones. 
I have realtek audio and creative  X-Fi MB3. What is creating the virtual signal. SBX in  X-Fi MB3? 
 
Right now I have my audio coming out of the USB to an ODAC. So there is no virtual SBX coming through? If I plug my motherboard optical out into an optical DAC I will be able to get virtual signal to my headphones? 
 
What if I plug my headphones into my motherboard? Because they sound like they are dipped in dog #$%#$ 3 inches thick when they are running through my mobo. 

 
I don't get it. You said you're using Realtek audio, but later you said you're using an ODAC. You probably are not using both at the same time.
The problem here is that the game is probably only sending out 2.0 information, so the MB3 application can't do anything to create virtual surround sound.
 
Jun 17, 2016 at 11:51 AM Post #3,557 of 4,136
 
I don't get it. You said you're using Realtek audio, but later you said you're using an ODAC. You probably are not using both at the same time.
The problem here is that the game is probably only sending out 2.0 information, so the MB3 application can't do anything to create virtual surround sound.

I have been messing around and thinking about this since I posted. 
It dawned on me the ODAC is bypassing the realtek. 
 
I am also a double moron. I have an Astro Mix amp sitting right here. I just built a gaming rig a couple months ago, so it didn't even cross my mind to hook my Astro mix amp up to the PC. 
 
All I really want is is virtual surround sound to my headphones. So actually the Mix Amp gives me TWO options now. Using coaxial or optical from the mobo to the mix amp I can get SBX to the mix amp OR turn SBX off and turn Dolby Headphone on from the mixamp correct? But from what I have read, SBX 66% or 100% is usually much better than Dolby Headphone. 

Edit:
I am eyeballing a Creative G5 which should bring an improvement over the mix amps dac and amp. 
 
Jun 17, 2016 at 1:10 PM Post #3,558 of 4,136
  I have been messing around and thinking about this since I posted. 
It dawned on me the ODAC is bypassing the realtek. 
 
I am also a double moron. I have an Astro Mix amp sitting right here. I just built a gaming rig a couple months ago, so it didn't even cross my mind to hook my Astro mix amp up to the PC. 
 
All I really want is is virtual surround sound to my headphones. So actually the Mix Amp gives me TWO options now. Using coaxial or optical from the mobo to the mix amp I can get SBX to the mix amp OR turn SBX off and turn Dolby Headphone on from the mixamp correct? But from what I have read, SBX 66% or 100% is usually much better than Dolby Headphone. 

Edit:
I am eyeballing a Creative G5 which should bring an improvement over the mix amps dac and amp. 

 
I don't believe you can output uncompressed surround with optical. What inputs does the Mix Amp have?
 
Jun 17, 2016 at 7:52 PM Post #3,559 of 4,136
optical, RCA, coaxial. 
If I understand the SBX signal should be able to transfer through coax or optical, but not USB. 
 
Jun 18, 2016 at 4:53 AM Post #3,560 of 4,136
You will still need a 5.1/7.1 device as your default playback device, and then use something equivalent to realtek's stereo mix to redirect the sound to your s/pdif out. If you don't care about latency (like for movies where the audio delay can be calibrated), or you have a low latency redirect method, you can use SBX. If you are using it in a context where latency matters, the Dolby headphones surround built in to the mix amp is probably your best bet with your available equipment. I personally find the dolby positional cues to be too artificial, as if the sounds are being bounced off of 5 walls arranged in a circle around me, whereas cmss/thx/SBX feel much more like natural point sources.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 3:53 AM Post #3,561 of 4,136
Bah! When everything switched to OpenAL and I had to use Alchemy to allow EAX/CMSS in games I thought it was over. Next build I didn't even get a sound card. (WinXP?)

Anyway, I loved my old Beyer 250-80's and I'm now looking at replacing my ATH-M50's with the Beyer DT770's (250ohm?) and I was looking at the SoundBlaster E5 to use as a DAC+AMP. I read that the 32/250ohm has a better sound stage than the 80... but that the 32ohm still needs an amp because of its lower sensitivity.

That's when I found this thread! Considering this is post 3,500 or something I didn't read up on all the previous posts. It seems some things have changed in the last 5 years since this thread was started.

I'm trying to figure out if I should go with the afore mentioned E5 DAC+AMP, a PCI-E SoundBlaster (Z/Zx) plus an Amp, or something else, E12 etc. I like the Sound Blaster solution mainly because I can plug my Mod Mic in front instead of the back of the PC.

I also had a question about AMD TrueAudio. Would it be able to replace the DSP on the X-Fi and then just get an Amp, or does it not work well enough to use with current games? I just got an HTC Vive and I'm trying to figure out the best solution for VR and FPS gaming. 

I'm looking to build a new PC at the end of the year and if AMD's claims hold up when Zen / Polaris is released I might be able to use the AMD True Audio then.

Edit**

I keep reading that for positional accuracy open cans like the DT990's is where it's at... however I also have 4 kids, so I've pretty much stuck to closed so I can hear everything without hearing EVERYTHING. Is it that big of a deal? I currently work nights, but I don't know how long before I can get back on days. It might be years and if the open cans are "a lot" better then it might be worth getting them.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 6:09 PM Post #3,562 of 4,136
  X-Fi MB3's function is completely unrelated to the on-board audio. It should work with any sound device independently.

 
Wrong. X-Fi MB3 will only appear as a virtual 7.1 device in Windows when you are using a compatible on-board audio codec for playback.
If you are using a USB DAC or any other device for playback - even a 7.1 device - then the X-Fi MB3 virtual sound device will be restricted to stereo-only and SBX Surround will be acting as a spatializer, not as a virtual surround sound downmixer.
 
  I don't believe you can output uncompressed surround with optical. What inputs does the Mix Amp have?

You can do uncompressed stereo over optical - up to 24/96 with most transmitters/receivers.
Surround has to be encoded (compressed) as Dolby Digital or DTS.
Dolby Digital Live or DTS: Connect software can do this, but adds latency and is not a good solution for gaming.
 
Virtual Surround is already a stereo signal, so that can be transmitted to another device via an optical connection.
But you can't pass a 5.1 signal via optical to an external Dolby Headphone decoder losslessly. You would need a sound card which did the DH processing before outputting an optical signal.
 
  Bah! When everything switched to OpenAL and I had to use Alchemy to allow EAX/CMSS in games I thought it was over. Next build I didn't even get a sound card. (WinXP?)

That was Vista.
Personally I still play a ton of old games - more than ever now with services like GOG - which is why I actually sought out an older X-Fi card for my PC.
The 20K1 (PCI) and 20K2 (PCIe) X-Fi cards have the full EAX feature-set, and are the last cards to support EAX in hardware.
Anything newer than them uses software emulation which sounds much worse - but better than nothing at all.
ALchemy is still required if you're using anything newer than Windows XP of course, and the last games to have EAX support were released around 2008.
 
If you don't care about old games, the new Sound Blasters are a fine choice as SBX is arguably better than CMSS for surround sound when downmixing from a 5.1/7.1 source.
 
  I'm trying to figure out if I should go with the afore mentioned E5 DAC+AMP, a PCI-E SoundBlaster (Z/Zx) plus an Amp, or something else, E12 etc. I like the Sound Blaster solution mainly because I can plug my Mod Mic in front instead of the back of the PC.

If you do PC gaming, get a Sound Blaster.
A regular headphone amp/DAC (like the E12) won't give you virtual surround.
The Sound BlasterX G5 (or Sound Blaster E5 with the latest firmware update?) seem like really good deals if you want a small all-in-one external device for this.
 
  I also had a question about AMD TrueAudio. Would it be able to replace the DSP on the X-Fi and then just get an Amp, or does it not work well enough to use with current games? I just got an HTC Vive and I'm trying to figure out the best solution for VR and FPS gaming. 

I'm looking to build a new PC at the end of the year and if AMD's claims hold up when Zen / Polaris is released I might be able to use the AMD True Audio then.

TrueAudio was a wasted opportunity. Instead of building a generalized virtual surround sound downmixer, it only works in specific games.
As far as I'm aware there were fewer than 10 games released that ever supported it.
 
I keep reading that for positional accuracy open cans like the DT990's is where it's at... however I also have 4 kids, so I've pretty much stuck to closed so I can hear everything without hearing EVERYTHING. Is it that big of a deal? I currently work nights, but I don't know how long before I can get back on days. It might be years and if the open cans are "a lot" better then it might be worth getting them.

You don't need open headphones. I use closed headphones for gaming for similar reasons.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 8:12 PM Post #3,563 of 4,136
   
Wrong. X-Fi MB3 will only appear as a virtual 7.1 device in Windows when you are using a compatible on-board audio codec for playback.
If you are using a USB DAC or any other device for playback - even a 7.1 device - then the X-Fi MB3 virtual sound device will be restricted to stereo-only and SBX Surround will be acting as a spatializer, not as a virtual surround sound downmixer.

 
I guess my wording was not clear. What I meant was that the sound virtualization is 100% software and could be implemented independently of the sound card in use, but Creative, in their incompetence, chose not to.
I would gladly pay for the software.
 
Jun 20, 2016 at 11:18 PM Post #3,564 of 4,136
Thanks for the reply, Studio. I've been reading several articles that have sounded promising from Valve and Oculus about supporting HRTF or 3D audio for VR. They sound pretty serious about it. So I was thinking that Unreal4, which has been pretty popular for VR would allow positional audio in most of the games built on it. Also, I'm a huge BF fan and with BF1 coming out in Oct. I was hoping to get some positional audio support in it, like BF2/3 had.

Since the sound blaster has a built in headphone amp? It sounds like the cheapest way to drive the DT770's. From this article the review showed a pretty good sound stage considering they are closed headphones. 

They seem to like to make it as confusing as possible to select the right product. I tried doing a comparison, but some support Virtual Surround, which I think is not what I want? And only the Newer Zx supports EAX 5.0, but then it uses the SoundCore3D DAC? I thought that was the one on the Recon3D that someone said to avoid...

Then the G5 doesn't have the SBX studio which is what I thought I wanted for the Headphone surround function, but it has BlasterX software instead? I'm guessing this is for console support. Someone else was recommending the Omni, but it doesn't look like it has a headphone amp on it.

Anyway, here's the comparison I hope someone can help straighten some of this out. I'm mostly looking at the difference between the G5 and the Zx at this point, but I'll post all 4 incase it helps anyone else out.

 
  Sound Blaster ZxMOREBUY

Sound Blaster E5MOREBUY

Sound Blaster Omni Surround 5.1MOREBUY

Sound BlasterX G5MOREBUY

 

GENERAL

Audio Technology

Sound Core3D

SB-Axx1™

-

SB-Axx1™

SBX Pro Studio

Yes

Yes

Yes

-

Max. Playback Quality

24-bit / 192kHz (Stereo-Direct Mode) 
24-bit / 96kHz (5.1)

Stereo Direct playback/recording sampling rates:
24-bit / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192kHz 
DSP playback/recording sampling rates:
24-bit / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96 kHz

USB 2.0:
Stereo / Surround: 24-bit / 96kHz 
USB 1.1:
Stereo: 24-bit / 96kHz 
Surround: 16-bit / 48kHz

Playback: 
24-bit / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz

Max. Recording Quality

24-bit / 96kHz

Mic-in: 
24bit / 44.1, 48.0, 88.2, 96.0 kHz 
  
Optical In: 
24-bit / 44,1 / 48 / 88,2 / 96 kHz

24-bit / 96kHz

Line-in: 
24bit / 44.1, 48.0, 88.2, 96.0, 176.4, 192 kHz 
  
Mic-in: 
24bit / 44.1, 48.0, 88.2, 96.0 kHz 
~16kHz (Frequency Response) 
  
Optical In: 
24-bit / 44,1 / 48 / 88,2 / 96 kHz

Output

5.1 Channels

Stereo

5.1 Channels

Stereo

Max. Headphone Output

-

High Gain 
120Ω - 600Ω 

Low Gain 
16Ω - 120Ω

-

High Gain 
150Ω - 600Ω 

Low Gain 
32Ω - 150Ω

Portability

-

Yes

-

-

Battery Life

-

Up to 8 hours

-

-

KEY FEATURES

Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR)

116dB

120dB (DAC)

100dB

120dB (DAC)

Upmixing of Stereo to Virtual Surround

-

Yes

-

Yes

Upmixing of Stereo to Multi-channels

Yes

-

Yes

-

Connectivity Options (Main)

Headphone:
1 x Amplified 3.5mm jack 
Speaker Out:
3 x 3.5mm jacks (Front,Rear,C/Sub) 
Line / Mic In:
1 x 3.5mm jack 
Optical Out:
1 x TOSLINK 
Optical In:
1 x TOSLINK

microUSB 

Line / Mic / Optical In:
1 x 3.5mm jack 
Headphone Out :
2 x 3.5mm jacks 
Line / Optical Out :
1 x 3.5mm jack 
USB Host Streaming:
1 x Type-A USB Port

Headphone Out:
1 x 3.5mm jack 
Line Out : 
2 x RCA jacks (Front Out) 
1 x 3.5mm ( Rear L/R ) 
1 x 3.5mm (C / Sub) 
Line In: 
1 x 3.5mm jack 
Microphone In:
1 x 3.5mm jack 
Optical Out:
1 x TOSLINK

microUSB 
  
Line / Optical In:
1 x 3.5mm jack 
  
Line / Optical Out :
1 x 3.5mm jack 
  
4-pole Headphone-out with Mic:
1 x 3.5mm jack 
  
Dedicated Mic In :
1 x 3.5mm jack

CrystalVoice

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Scout Mode

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

EAX

EAX Advanced 5.0

-

-

-

Dolby Digital Technology

Dolby Digital Live Encoding

-

Dolby Digital Live Encoding

-

DTS Connect Encoding

Yes

-

-

-

Audio Fidelity

Up to 24-bit / 192kHz

Up to 24-bit / 192kHz

Up to 24-bit / 96kHz

Up to 24-bit / 192kHz

Audio Codec

-

AAC 
SBC 
aptX Low Latency

-

-

SOFTWARE & COMPATIBILITY

Included / Downloadable Software

-

Sound Blaster E-series Control Panel

-

BlasterX Acoustic Engine Pro Software for Windows

Compatible Platform

PC - PCIe x1

USB 2.0 
USB 3.0 
Bluetooth

USB 2.0

USB 2.0 
USB 3.0

Supported Gaming Consoles

-

-

-

PlayStation® 4 
Xbox One

 
Jun 21, 2016 at 2:23 PM Post #3,565 of 4,136
  Thanks for the reply, Studio. I've been reading several articles that have sounded promising from Valve and Oculus about supporting HRTF or 3D audio for VR. They sound pretty serious about it. So I was thinking that Unreal4, which has been pretty popular for VR would allow positional audio in most of the games built on it. Also, I'm a huge BF fan and with BF1 coming out in Oct. I was hoping to get some positional audio support in it, like BF2/3 had.

Yes, VR may finally see a resurgence in good gaming audio.
There's been a void the past decade or so ever since Vista killed DirectSound3D Hardware support.
 
Battlefield One is sure to support Dolby Atmos, just as Star Wars Battlefront does.
However I have no idea how that is currently implemented in the game as it's not something that I play.
I don't know if you need an Atmos-capable receiver, or if it can be processed by the game.
 
Overwatch (not something that I play either) also supports Atmos for headphones on PC, and that's processed entirely by the game so it's just an option that you can enable in the menus.
 
But I don't think that games including good headphone audio is enough to replace a sound card.
There are still many, many games out there which have bad headphone support, but do have 5.1/7.1 capabilities, which a sound card can then create a good headphone-optimized binaural mix from.
 
  Since the sound blaster has a built in headphone amp? It sounds like the cheapest way to drive the DT770's. From this article the review showed a pretty good sound stage considering they are closed headphones. 

The E5/G5 seem like great devices if you want an external USB sound card (DAC) with a headphone amp built in.
The main differentiators between them seem to be that the G5 supports 4-pole headsets, while the E5 has a battery and Bluetooth support.
If they update the E5 to support 4-pole headsets, or release a higher-end G model, I will probably upgrade to one of them from my Sound Blaster Z, as that would be very convenient for my setup.
 
They seem to like to make it as confusing as possible to select the right product. I tried doing a comparison, but some support Virtual Surround, which I think is not what I want? And only the Newer Zx supports EAX 5.0, but then it uses the SoundCore3D DAC? I thought that was the one on the Recon3D that someone said to avoid...

The Sound Core3D chip is an audio processor, not a DAC.
It's the chip they use to handle things like the virtual surround processing.
Prior to that it was the 20K1/20K2 chips in the X-Fi cards, and now the Axx1 chips in the latest devices.
 
The last chips to have EAX processing were the 20K1/20K2.
EAX is "supported" on the newer Sound Core3D devices - and almost certainly with the Axx1 devices too even if they don't mention it - but it is now software emulation running on your CPU.
The software emulation gives you back EAX effects in old games, but they don't sound the same as running on real hardware. (20K1/20K2)
All the effects sound really exaggerated in the software emulation, there's no subtlety any more. I'll try and record some clips to make a comparison video.
 
But all of this only applies if you are playing old games. EAX is not supported in any game past ~2008 or so.
 
  Then the G5 doesn't have the SBX studio which is what I thought I wanted for the Headphone surround function, but it has BlasterX software instead? I'm guessing this is for console support. Someone else was recommending the Omni, but it doesn't look like it has a headphone amp on it.

It looks like it's just a rebranding of SBX. They even have an SBX button on the side of the device. It has all the same settings as SBX Pro Studio.
 
  I guess my wording was not clear. What I meant was that the sound virtualization is 100% software and could be implemented independently of the sound card in use, but Creative, in their incompetence, chose not to.
I would gladly pay for the software.

"Product isn't what I want it to be, therefore incompetence."
I agree that it would be good if they offered a product which lets you do the SBX processing on your CPU and output that stereo signal to a device of your choosing, but that's not what X-Fi MB3 is.
X-Fi MB3 is designed to work with specific on-board audio codecs. I don't know the reason for that.
Perhaps there is some audio processing hardware that they are able to leverage to take some load off the CPU? Perhaps it's a licensing deal? Perhaps they want you to buy their own hardware if you're choosing to buy an external audio device rather than a software package to work with hardware built into the majority of PCs.
As I said, I don't know the specifics. But I doubt that it's incompetence.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:39 PM Post #3,567 of 4,136
"Product isn't what I want it to be, therefore incompetence." I agree that it would be good if they offered a product which lets you do the SBX processing on your CPU and output that stereo signal to a device of your choosing, but that's not what X-Fi MB3 is.
X-Fi MB3 is designed to work with specific on-board audio codecs. I don't know the reason for that.
Perhaps there is some audio processing hardware that they are able to leverage to take some load off the CPU? Perhaps it's a licensing deal? Perhaps they want you to buy their own hardware if you're choosing to buy an external audio device rather than a software package to work with hardware built into the majority of PCs.
As I said, I don't know the specifics. But I doubt that it's incompetence.

 
I'm sorry but the virtualization on X-Fi MB3 is software. Those on-board audio codecs are no more than simple DACs. They mostly have no integrated specialized hardware for headphone surround virtualization. It can easily be achieved with negligible performance compromise on CPU. Many companies do it in their game engines and recently it showed up on the likes of Razer Surround and X-Fi MB3.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:47 PM Post #3,568 of 4,136
  I'm sorry but the virtualization on X-Fi MB3 is software. Those on-board audio codecs are no more than simple DACs. They mostly have no integrated specialized hardware for headphone surround virtualization. It can easily be achieved with negligible performance compromise on CPU. Many companies do it in their game engines and recently it showed up on the likes of Razer Surround and X-Fi MB3.

I was just throwing out possibilities for why they might not offer software that works with any device.
I expect that the most likely answer is that they want you to buy their hardware.
If you buy X-Fi MB3 and stick with your on-board audio, well they get a $30 software license from you when you might have otherwise spent nothing.
If you're buying new audio hardware, they want your $200 or whatever you might spend. They don't want to only collect $30 when you go and give $200 to another company.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 8:52 PM Post #3,569 of 4,136
  I was just throwing out possibilities for why they might not offer software that works with any device.
I expect that the most likely answer is that they want you to buy their hardware.
If you buy X-Fi MB3 and stick with your on-board audio, well they get a $30 software license from you when you might have otherwise spent nothing.
If you're buying new audio hardware, they want your $200 or whatever you might spend. They don't want to only collect $30 when you go and give $200 to another company.

Well, with that they're just losing sales from external DAC users that wouldn't probably buy Creative hardware anyway.
They could at the very least provide a trial so that we could try if the software works with the virtual audio cables mentioned a few posts back. I'm not gonna pay $30 just to find out it doesn't work.
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 9:12 PM Post #3,570 of 4,136
 
The Sound Core3D chip is an audio processor, not a DAC.

Whoops, I meant DSP not DAC.

Hmm, I assume by 4-pole you mean an 1/8in for headphone and mic setup. 4-pole makes me think of switches...

OK, So EAX is out unless I want to re-live the glory days.

The G5 has a better amp as far as I can tell and since it's targeted towards consoles it should be doing all processing onboard? But for console users it also doesn't support Dolby surround like the Mixamp does? (It was in a review I read).

-------------------
Ok, I was about set on the G5 when I read another review on Head-fi saying that the Omni is the same thing to a PC user for less. But then I remembered something important. The issue with the VR is the max latency time of 22ms, but it's prefered to be under 11ms.

All of the USB feed audio devices are around 21.7ms per: www.presonus.com/community/Learn/The-Truth-About-Digital-Audio-Latency
 
If that's true then only the Sound Blaster Z will work for all of the applications that I want to use it for... It looks like the choice was made for me, as VR is the most important aspect to 3D audio for me moving into the future.

**Edit

Ahh! I just remembered that the 1/8" on the HTC goes to a USB passthrough... So... where does that audio come from. Hmm, I remember them saying that they had to by-pass the OS to get frame times lowered, but that's for the HDMI video...audio HDMI, that's probably where it comes in at.

I mean you could run a Headphone extension cable across the 15ft cable and plug it into the Sound Blaster Z. Not sure if you can selected a different audio source in game, or if it just takes the Windows default.

I'm moving over the weekend so everything is packed, up and I can't test anything right now.
 

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